Raising the profile of Nursery Nurses

Raising the profile of Nursery Nurses

by: kimme - 28-01-10 22:18

Hi All,

I'm really interested in starting some sort of campaign that as the title suggests: raises the profile of NN'sSome of you will recognise me from the DCC paycut topic.  It's beginning to dawn on me that actually people don't know what a NN is/does/the qualifications and training we have.  Worryingly this extends to many of our employers and colleagues such as teachers and Head Teachers.   I am feeling extremely nervous about the future of my career.  Not least because I cannot afford to take a paycut of a third.  However this is not just  about my job this is about far more than that.  This is about the children getting the very best.  I wholeheartedly believe in Early Years.  Its becoming alarmingly obvious to me as DCC now call me an Early Years Assistant (don't worry it is under protest and we won't all be going quietly) that Nursery Nurses are becoming extinct.

I know I am not alone so lets stand shoulder to shoulder and lead the way......

Would love to hear from anyone as passionate as I am!

by: Maestro

Nursery Nurses will never be extinct, there's still a healthy number of people failing school targets, so they'll be pushed onto the training programmes.

RE: RE: Raising the profile of Nursery Nurses - 29-01-10 19:44

by: allie

Sorry to say that Maestro is right.  what about the children we are entrusting to some people with little knowledge of the or having the necessary skills BUT gaining qualifications to work with and support children at such a critical time in their life!! Do people think that this career is the easy wayout?!!

by: red sun

I am sure they do, after all all we did is sit and play all day with cute little children, oh and can I be in the baby room please!!!!

by: Maestro

Its all I do...

by: kimme

Maestro - can you please clarify......you think that NN has become the perfect career for those who haven't suceeded acemdemically at school?  Are you a NN yourself?  When I trained to become a NN (okay 15 years ago now) the places on my CACHE Diploma were very limited and highly sought after.  I think they always received in excess of 100 applicants and accepted 25.  The place was GCSE dependant (5 above C, I think) and required a written exam.  At the end of the 2 year course there were only 11 of us that qualified!  Is the problem due to lowered standards?  Do you feel things are ok as they are or should we be pushing to improve things? 

Allie -  I guess I have the questions......

Janie - you too

Anybody else????

Thinking about your comments I think I can share your concerns.  In my area many, many parents have been trained with NVQ's in child care.  Whilst I can appreciate the concept behind this.  It does alarm me that those who have acheived level 3's are suddenly equal to me.  I mean no disrespect in this because obviously SOME of them are brilliant at it.  HOWEVER their training in no way correlates to mine.  I did 2 years full time and worked in 8 different placements.  Someone PLEASE tell me how this equation works!

by: Kempe

Hi Kimme,

as far as I know (my wife is starting her NVQ L3) this is also  a 2 year course, and you're working in a setting full time. Some colleges find placements so you work in several places during your course.

I had a look at the CACHE books that my wife has and they don't differ that much from the NVQ L3 book.

She have to do 9 mandatory units and minimum 4 optional units.

Regards,

Henk

by: kimme

Hi Henk,

Thanks for that.  From looking at the CACHE website it seems what they offer is very different now to what it was 15 years ago.  One of the thing that I have noticed with NVQ's is that they vary vastly from college to college and tutor to tutor.  Some maintain very high standards, which of course is what we expect!!!

I understand that NVQ's are supposed to be work based training however I do feel that working in a range of placements is hugely advantageous.  I worked in such a variety, ranging from ante-natal care and birth right through to children of 8 in schools.  I also did special needs placements, a family placement (studying a family with baby and 3 year old for the duration of my course) and a state and private nursery.  The difficulty of working in one placement is that it is so easy to pick up the not so good practice.  Whereas when you work in a range you get to experience a range and pick the best!!! 

I hope I don't come across as though I just trying to knock those training today.  I'm not.  We need people to train but we also need the training to be excellent for everyone involved don't we?!

by: silence28

Henk,

NVQ Level 3 has 5 mandatory unita and 4 optional-9 in total...

by: allie

The NVQ is supposed to be a qualification which supports those dedicated in the workforce to gain a qualification. In my experience i often find an influx of students requiring a place to complete their NVQs. Doesn't that defeat the objective?,

Like you Kimme, I completed 2 years on the NNEB, again subject to GCSEs and sitting an entry exam (set by the college)! This was a highly intense course with a limited number of places, over subscribed with a high drop out rate.

It appears that the standards in Early Childhood Education and Care have been lowered over the years. I understand that the government is attempting to raise the standard but in my experience (at present) that isn't happening. There is limited understanding by some (and possibly the government) how vital quality provision with quality staffing is. Inadequate staff impacts highly on the development of our children.

I'm currently studying for a comparative essay and am looking at Scandinavian countries - wev've got along way to go to raise the standards not only in the provision we provide BUT also in training good qualitity staff!!!

by: kimme

Allie I'm so glad to that you share my concerns.

Do you have any ideas or desire to try and improve the situation here?

Personally ( I admit with a limited knowledge) I feel a bit disappointed with CACHE.  How can they lower the requirements so far and call it an equivalent?

by: Karine

The government are trying to improve standards within this country to catch up with places like Denmark and Sweden - with a very long way to go.  What they did by introducint the NVQ system was initially a good idea.  When I did mine in 2003 we had to work extremely hard to produce evidence of our knowledge and work practice.  Then the New Standards came in along with the government scheme of Train to Gain.  The Government paid colleges or training companies to get some of these students through in a particular time scale.  The qualification that used to take approx 2 years for a level 3, was being pushed through within 9 months and sometimes 6 months. Assessors were pressurised into getting these students through regardless, otherwise their jobs were in question and under threat.  I left as an assessor due to this.  I no longer felt that in many cases the qualification was not deserved and certainly many who qualified were still unable to fully understand child development in order to make qualified assessment for that childs overall development and to move them onto their next steps.

I am hoping that this new level 3 will be more in tune to upskill our workforce in line with the old NNEB which produced good quality practitioners who undertook day or evening training in relation to theory and practice (not just practice as per the NVQ). 

by: red sun

I agree with Millie, I was working as an assessor and left for the very same reasons. I saw assessor's doing the work for the learners and passing learners as competent when they clearly were not. The final straw was when our line manager called a meeting to discuss whether we thought a learner was competent, how we could make her competent because if we didnt by such and such a date then the training centre wouldn't get the money from the LSC. That said there are some very good assessors out there who are hard on their learners, and rightly so as long as they give guidance, however as Millie said some assessors are under pressure, some get bonuses the more learners they get through therefore they will sign them off as competent even if they are not or are borderline just to get the money. The system is flawed unfortunately.

by: joshuajones

Sadly you do not need 5 GCSE's or even 1 to get onto an NVQ in childcare, so yes this is as ever the option for those who don't do well at school, Oh or maybe hairdressing !!!

Hmmm and lets look at key skills (haha !!) if you can't get keyskills to enable you to do  L3 , you can do a stand alone L3 which means that the standard of literacy and numeracy is not even passable by the government, and their standards are fairly low !!!!!

The L3 can be completed in 6 months and the L2 in 3 months.

What happened to the 2 year fulltime courses that actually taught students what they needed to know ?????

The profile of nursery nurses will never be raised while this dumbing down continues

by: Clarence

The whole reason I came accross this site was because I was looking if a union existed.  Playgroups were originally ran by mothers but bit by bit the government are indirectly gaining control by the introduction of funding and insisting staff undertake qualifications.  A cheap form of educating children.

Having worked in a 2 playgroups I do think that standards do need raising accross the proffession so am all for the Early Years degree.  However at what point are us women going recognise playgroup and nursery staff are now professionals and deserve a proffesional salary?  We should either be taken under the wing of the Teachers Union or set one up ourselves. 

How Playgroups Began

by: outspoken2010

Sorry to be annoying but "

How Playgroups Began

The concept of the playgroup began to develop in the 1950s, when pediatricians and parenting experts started encouraging parents to "socialize" their children before they entered school."

is soooo wrong !!!

I quote here

" In 1837, having developed and tested a radically new educational method and philosophy based on structured, activity based learning, Friedrich Froebel moved to Bad Blankenburg and established his Play and Activity Institute which he renamed in 1840 Kindergarten."

Early years education is a bit longer around than 1950s as you can see and still encounters the same problem- teachers are a allways higher payed  and nursery nurses who bring the children "up to the schools standard" are not well payed.....

Countries like Sweden and Denmark have the same education for staff in EY as primary school- same pay and same level of recognition.

As long as there are constant changes in the level of entry to job qualifications and change of accepted qualification it will be extremly difficult to raise the profile of the job...

The "Early years professional status " is the next big laugh- since when were nursery nursers NOT professionals for Early Years??

One unfifyied unbrella titel and entry level , under which older recognized qualifications  will be listed would make much more sense.

by: Maestro

Kimme,

"Maestro - can you please clarify......you think that NN has become the perfect career for those who haven't suceeded acemdemically at school?"

No I don't think this. It's the way life is though. I have been told from teachers they will push young girls under achieving onto the courses, and have been informed again from teachers of plans to role out childcare courses for 15/16 year olds. Mainly because they are not academically minded enough to pass GCSE's.

You only have to look at the girls and boys coming from school and college to know they weren't the most academically minded. 

Are you a NN yourself? 

I am indeed. 

When I trained to become a NN (okay 15 years ago now) the places on my CACHE Diploma were very limited and highly sought after.  I think they always received in excess of 100 applicants and accepted 25.  The place was GCSE dependant (5 above C, I think) and required a written exam. 

Courses require GCSE's in English and Maths at grade C, but for those that don't meet these requirements, a fair few, they can do Key Skills. 

At the end of the 2 year course there were only 11 of us that qualified!  Is the problem due to lowered standards? 

Yes, you can't fail an NVQ. Training programs are about bums on seats. Bums make £££. Assessors are pushing through incompetent candidates and those assessors who don't usually end up leaving because of the system. 

Do you feel things are ok as they are or should we be pushing to improve things?"

No I don't think things are ok. If you search for some of my posts, my feelings are well known. Improvements...? We can start by making a standard set of criteria that EVERYONE follows.

by: allie

I think Clarence is refering to the 'Playgroup movement' back in the 1960.s Intitated by Tutaev ( or so i've read), it was becoming recognised that play aided development and the limited services around encouraged parents (particular mothers) to start playgroups, a move welcomed by government, a low cost substitue for nursery education.

Frobel, of course, was and still is recognised for the influences re Kindergartens.

Nursery education in the UK (particular Scotland) was developed in 1816 by Robert Owen.

by: Karine

As an assessor i did on occasion fail a few candidates due to total lack of understanding of child development, empathy with children to include not being able to communicate effectively even with their own colleagues/peers to be able to in fact communicate with the little babies and children.

i would love for our workforce to be paid what they should be earning.  The reality is though that whilst the government are dictating the fees for each child and subsidising these - Managers/owners will be unable to pay a higher wage, even when they value their staff.

In Sweden the majority of the provision  is paid for by the government to include all 3 meals, premises, resources and it reflects a home environment.  Parents contribute around seven pounds per day.  The government contriute to the staff wages.

I think we have a very long wait for that to happen over here

by: Clarence

I think your right.  I know I keep harping on about equality but it's true.  I used to be an office manager before having children and was on a fair sum but once I had children it didn't pay to work full time so became a play group assistant.  I recently split with my husband so looked at getting a job with a salary of £20000 a year.  I worked out that I would loose housing benefit but gain working tax credits however I would still be on less money than working 16 hours in a play group earning £6.30 an hour.

The government clearly want mothers to be at home bringing up the children.  If they raised the amount of working tax credits they contribute to childcare (which would be partly funded by the tax payed on wages and reduction in housing benefit) then:

1)  Childcare wages would go up.

2)  More people would use child care.

The play group I work in is funded by government funding so again they dictate our wages.

A union definately needs setting up.

by: Karine

Sadly in this country unions no longer have any clout -

by: kimme

I think it's about time we started spelling out to the unions what we expect from them......

by: some badgers

Clarence - £6.30 an hour!

what were you,  the Manager?

by: Clarence

Assistant spervisor, will go up to £7.00 - £7.50 once fully NVQ3 qualified. 

by: Tunja

What is a 'spervisor'

by: Maestro

Someone who gets £6.30 p/h!

by: some badgers

Tunja - you ask a sensible question, a Spervisor is a type of eye protection warn by vets during artificial insemination.

Clarence - £7.50 per hour! where do you live Belgravia Square?

by: kimme

LOL.......this is getting laughable -perhaps I'll ask DCC if I can be called a Spervisor instead of an Early Years Ass'!!!!

Just been reading about Birmingham CC?  Please get in contact  - you must do whatever you can, be strong and let your unions know that without a doubt you will not go quietly!  Who on earth can think that closing down a load of nurseries and having to set up a whole new system of childcare is in the best interest of anyone - apart form those sitting in offices - CRAZY.

It must be time to get properly unionised - is there any other way?????

by: some badgers

....at least you haven't lost your sense of humour! (yet).

P.S. Assistant Managers get the worst acronym

by: sharan97

There are a couple of unions that are specifically for people who work in Early Years and education and they are worth looking into. They are 'Voice' and 'Aspect'. I had never heard of them until I went along to the nursery world show a few weeks ago.

by: kimme

Te He some badgers - gotta laugh - what else have we got (well a lot actually but a sense of humour keeps you going when nothing else can)

Thanks for that Sharon97 - interesting!  Any one have any personal experience of them?

Helloooooo Birmingham..........

by: Helen W

Hiya - I work for Aspect so happy to answer any questions I can - I know that's not the same as someone who is a member themselves so happy to back off and let members answer any questions too but if you do want to know anything do shout and I'll do my best to help.

In brief we are a union and professional association for all children's services professionals - we also have groups within that for any group of members who come to us and ask for something specific to represent their interests as well as being part of the bigger whole, so we have a group called our Early Childhood and Education Group who have a newsletter and run an annual conference, and we have a section for EYPs with their own charter and so on.

I'll do my best to answer any queries - if it's useful my email is helen@aspect.org.uk.

Cheers! Helen

by: kimme

Thanks Helen,

I'd be interested to know how many members there are and what structure the union has.  Is there a branch in Devon?

by: Helen W

Hiya

We have over over 4000 members, spread across the UK, and across children's services. We have local branches/groups of members (some call themselves branches, some don't) throughout the country. There is a local rep within the school improvement service within Devon, and I think we have some EYP members in Devon.

I nationally support our EYP group, and my "day job" is looking after a patch (which does actually include Devon - it's mostly SW and WM but I was in Southampton today too for example). We have Regional Officers around the country, and we support both groups of members and individual members depending on need.

As well as being a union we are also a professional association so we also have a network of associates who run training and coaching, and we have a professional magazine too.

I hope this helps!

Helen 

by: kimme

Hi again,

Thank you, yes this is interesting as I was not aware of Aspect before your contact on these forums. 

Just wondering if Aspect has had any dealings with having to challenge employers?

Also curious whether your membership includes any old style NN's ?(Simply because personally I am a NN rather than EYP)  Though the thought of further training does appeal to me, as a mum with 2 very young children and currently facing the fact that in 3 years I may have to give up my much-loved career (on top of the fact our while house needs renovating) doing further training at the moment is not an option.

Do you have any members affected by the Birmingham situation.  Would love to hear from some x

by: billabong

WOW Kimmie, GREAT post (but what would you expect, she's a GREAT collegue/nusery nurse/friend.)

My only comment is..... I have and employ NVQ3 who are brilliantly FANTASTIC  and I have employed NNEB trained staff who have been s.... There was a BIG debate on radio2 today about raising teaching standards so no one with a deggree lower than a 3rd can do PGCE. Now I.m DEAD agianst that 'cause with Nursery Nurses I truely believe that some people 'have just got it' EVEN if they don't have the 'Ology!!' AND I have witnessed the same with teachers. Degree class, NNEB staus, NVQ level, NONE of it means a thing .... if YOU CAN'T DELIEVER .... Kimmie,,,,, YOU CAN XXXXXXXX

by: red sun

I have always maintained that the best qualified person is not always or necessarily the best person for the job. I once worked with a Supervisor who had every qalification under the sun (ok slight exagerration but you get my drift) and she was absolutely uselss and had ideas and suggestions that were ridiculous. I understand completely billabong that when it comes to working woth children some people have "just got it". I'm all for qualifications and personal and career development, I just ensure that when I'm interviewing I take EVERYTHING into account!!

by: Chey

Hello everyone, very interesting debates. 'Raising the profile of Nursery Nurses'.

I think the clues to this are in the title?? We need to come up with something!!?? that better describes what we do. And there we have a major challenge. As an NNEB nursery nurse (Yes Kimme I went through the same rigor as you in 1982 when I began, bring it back please!!) I have never taken the role of nurse as such (except first aid of course) but others with better clearly defined titles do that as well. Early Years Practitioner!!?? Don't like being called a practitioner, Early Childhood Educator and Carer, bit long!! Educarer?? Mmmm...  Any ideas anyone?

yes would be interested in a campaign keep me posted

I was once asked if I worked with plants!! :)

by: Tallulah

In ireland they encourage people who don't get enough points for third level education or who are on the social welfare to do childcare. This really doesn't help our profile. They are also training young girls with low grades straight out of school to be supervisors so they can begin working at the top above some staff who have lower qualifications but have been working in childcare for years.  I have noticed some employers advertising for qualifications without experience these days. 

by: kimme

Thanks everyone for keeping this debate going.......ALL entirely valid points.

SO where from here?

I think one of the reasons that the course that I did was so good that you committed half and half to theory and practice.  They were as intertwined as they should be.  Of course there is going to be a range within in this but not the shambles we see now.  I am not trying to knock those with different qualifications just highlight the differences.

I have lost count of the number of people who have said to me recently about young people who can't quite make the grades being pushed towards childcare.  What does this say about society?  Of course people who genuinely want to work with children should have a chance and should be able to get some sort of qualification and personal development BUT that is NOT my career!!!!

HELP please............

by: Helen W

Hiya Kimme and all - I'm a regional official so my "day job" is basically about representing individual members and groups of members and supporting them with issues with their employers. Not all my work is with early years people so I deal with different kinds of employers as required ... 

In terms of nursery nurses, our membership in early years used to be mostly local authority advisors and consultants, but now we are very much looking to bring together professionals from across the whole of the children's sector ... so it's all about whether that seems to fit with your sense of your professional identity really.

I hope this helps! 

Btw - my view is that the questions of proper career paths, CPD, entry points and qualifications, general status of the profession, and indeed the gender balance of the profession, are all linked to each other and we need to fight all of us together what has become a systemic problem. That's my two-pennorth. Routes for all - but also rigour and recognition and support and requirements for professionalism and ongoing development and training for all.

by: kimme

Hear hear!!!! 

Now lets try and open this up and see if any of those people reading this but not commenting will at least post an "I'm up for it!"  We NEED numbers to do this even if you're not feeling like talking about it:-)

by: Chey

Hi Kimme, one item and an important one to address is that the Early Years sector does not (me and my lecturer at uni have looked a lot) have an Ethical Statement to support it. I think with the help of ASPECT the union mentioned earlier in this forum we need to campaign to develop one. Most professions have one, I do not quite understand how we have been overlooked but there we are. I would also urge all Nursery Staff whatever your role to join a union of some kind that suits you. They are an invaluable source of advice and support.

So maybe that's a start for a campaign to create an Ethical Statement for the Early Years Sector . Teachers have one, youth workers, nurses, physio's, social workers etc to name but a few.

Let me know your thoughts

kind regards Chey

by: kimme

What an interesting idea!  I'm up for it - where do we start?