by: Tallulah - 31-03-10 00:48
Hi - I was just wondering if it is possible to live on an average childcare/nursery wage in the UK taking rent and living expenses into account. It is possible to just about get by in Ireland but we are a very expensive country and everything is overpriced.
by: Rachel *Twinks*
Hi
From personal experience I think that a nursery nurse wage is way to low for the work actually involved especially taking into account the paper work side of things that the EYFS has brought in. If you get into the managerial side of things then the money can be a little better depending who you work for. Again, I found that private daycare pay less than community nurseries or schools but overall I think the childcare profession is underpaid all around!
Good Luck with what you choose to do!
Rachel
by: me
yes did it for years with help from tax credits and being sensible.
by: Maestro
It depends on how you live, so many people live above, or on the limit of their means. No one makes do anymore, everyone has to keep up with the Jones, and its seen as an infringement of human rights if you can't afford to have Sky TV.
Problems arise when people live to their means or above their means. If you're living above your means then you're an idiot. If you're living to your means then well done, but what happens when the car breaks down, the washing machine breaks etc... Credit cards are used and then all of a sudden everyone complains they can not afford to live. At the same time, they'll still be watching Sky TV, having a Holiday, buying the latest PC/TV/Games Console/Mobile etc...
Living adequately is possible, but what is adequately? Having a nice house, nice car, holidays, no credit cards? Or is it having somewhere to live, food to eat, getting to work and getting the children to school?
The girls at work moan they dont get paid enough but then they are taking holidays to the Caribbean, Mauritius, Dubai, having Sky, the worlds fastest broadband, spending £500 on B'day presents (that really does puzzle me), spending £60-80 on a night out up town, designer clothes... the list is endless. Oh, and litte Johnny... He really does not need £60 Timberland boots than he'll out grow in 6 months, no matter how nice they are!
Shopping for brands interests me, so many people will only buy branded goods its laughable. Whether its, food, clothes, appliances, or services. Own brand foods get slated for being unhealthy; when infact a large percentage is made in the same factory and packaged in a different box, everyone thinks that a branded appliance will last longer, branded services are better quality and workmanship, and clothes... lets stay in fashion people!! Then there's the guilt of your children not being the coolest in the school...
Everyone has to flash the cash and boast. If people lived sensibly then yes you can afford to live. Underpaid or not, you can afford to live.
I could go on forever with topics like this.
by: Tallulah
Wow didn't expect such a response thanks everyone. Maestro I would be singing from the same sheet as you. Since the recession has hit in Ireland a lot of people are having to give up the luxuries you mention and get used to a simpler way of life. It seems the opportunities for professional development are more exciting in the uk, co workers are important too as it would be nice to interact with intelligent people who are interested in education and development. But I have no idea what it's like to live in the country on a low wage. I went into childcare with the view that as work takes up the largest part of the day it has to be doing something you love. I am not accustomed to expensive holidays either.
by: Dons
i have managed to support 2 adults on a childcare wage in the UK. We don't have a credit card or an overdraft. Now that we now have 2 incomes we can afford more luxery items.If we don't have the cash, we don't go out or shop for labelled items etc. For us this has always been the way it is. I can't understand how pople can spend so much on unncecessary items. I like to enjoy a reasonable social/culured life so if that means buying hme brands, it's fine by me.
by: c
I live in Kent, suppose to be one of the expensive areas to live; but Yes I too have been living on a childcare wage since I was 18; I have had a mortgage for the past 7 years, it's ok you just need to spend wisely and jut buy what you need. Sometimes I might afford to buy homebrands but store own is just as good!!! even better value for money!!! Supermarkets are good for shopping in as well, and do lots of things in bulk...
RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 06-04-10 19:18by: Lolo
I spent a year living below the poverty line. I managed to pay mortgage, rent, bills, feed us healthy food, run a car and for us to go on 3 holidays. All without getting in to debt. I did this because we have 2 very small children (who don't cost for trips or "need" expensive stuff), we get lots of clothes handed down from family and friends, and we didn't buy anything for ourselves beyond the necessary - no new clothes except when stuff actually fell apart.
I did babysitting to put a little by in case the fridge or whatever broke down.
At the time it was hard and worrying and a bit depressing when you are watering down everything or going without your morning cup of tea if the box runs out before the month does, but we got through! It was an interesting challenge if nothing else!
RE: RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 07-04-10 13:14by: Lolly
Hi folks
Yes I agree with most of the above, we can all pull in our belts and live a reasonable life on the childcare wage. I personally don't need SKY tv, the latest phone and designer labels it's not my scene. But just ask yourselves one questions why the bloody hell should we live and get by on low pay. Many of us work 40 plus hours a week have trained and studied like complete nutters. We have the responsibility of looking after, educating and monitoring the development of not only the next generation but also people most treasured processions their children. I think we absolutely deserve more money for the fantastic job we do and should not settle with just getting by, what sort of life is that for all our dedication and hard work.
Come on people stand up and fight for better pay because we deserve it, people cleaning toilets and stacking shelves (important jobs in themselves) often get paid more than us!!!
RE: RE: RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 07-04-10 13:54by: scarlett
yes the pay should be higher. but... where will the money come from? supermarkets make millions of££ profit, childcare settings do not.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 07-04-10 17:05by: Lolly
Childcare settings may not make millions of pounds, however maybe we should be state run like schools, teachers tend to earn a good wage, although they are always complaining about it. I am not comparing our job to that of primary school teachers however, if we were all state run then there may be some way we could all be paid a decent wage for our hard work and loyal service. I work for a private nursery the pay is rubbish, the fee's are in our case quite reasonable but times are hard we haven't had a pay rise for 2 and half years. I've qualified in that time and for what to be earning the same as when I was unqualified. No wonder they can't attract men into our industry, because most of them wouldn't get out of bed for what we are paid. Our industry really is for the second jobber, pocket money person in the household. A lot of people go on about how they do it for the love of the job and that's a great sentiment to have however, love of a job doesn't pay the bills and put food on the table. Ok so some have said that they don't want an extravagant lifestyle however, we work to live not live to work and having a few luxuries or doing things we enjoy makes for a happier life.
Don't get me wrong, I love my job but a few bob extra in the pay packet would mean that I could have a few more luxuries and even that rare notion of a healthy savings account for rainy days.
by: whmon
But Lolly, if we were all living on a state wage, who would pay for it all? the country would be well and truely bankrupt. Sure Start is a case in point -it is not paying for itself as it's high wages and unnecessary posts are making it financially unviable (receptionists, fathers inclusion officers, etc, etc.)
While I agree wholeheartedly that it is good to aspire to a decent wage, the only way to get it is to get qualifications that affords a decent living. Go for law, medicine, that sort of thing. Then, when you have children you can pay the childcare fees you believe suitable for the qualifications and hard work of your carer.
What will you pay? Will you pay something akin to your own wage, a wage you've spent years of study and sweat to achieve? or will you pay a bit less than that because your childcarer has not even skimed the surface of what you've been through?
RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 08-04-10 16:41by: Lolly
whmon
What a disgusting attitude you have to the nursery/childcare profession. Ok so we won't necessarily get paid doctors wages and we all know that they train and work hard and we couldn't do without them. Surely you must agree that most childcare staff should earn more than the minimum wage for the qualifications and the work that they do. i can't understand why the people on this post are so HAPPY with crap money and why you wouldn't want to fight and stand up for better pay.
And to answer your question know I wouldn't expect to pay a doctors/nurses wage to childcare staff, but I would think that maybe a substantial amount more than a shelf stacker in Tesco or the local binman. We know we can't do without these people, but parents can't do without us either, to look after their little darlings. Think on it and shame on you.
RE: RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 21-04-10 01:12by: Joy Mulvaney
Well Lolly it seems to me like someone is a tad bitter and twisted about "what they've been through", and the fact we've not (as child carers) "even skimmed the surface of". I think they should remember WHO we're caring for!!!
THE MOST PRECIOUS THINGS IN THE WORLD- CHILDREN.....
We are totally responsible for their safety, well-being, happiness, education etc, etc, etc.... And what wage could that "AKIN TO"?
As for qualifications...bring it on! Then we can charge the lowlife something "AKIN" to "IT'S" wage!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by: Maestro
Not to sure how you regard whmon's attitude as disgusting. I agree with her.
When people moan about the childcare wage did anyone actually research the wage they would get before doing the qualification? No? Shame on them! Standing up for better pay is one thing, but standing up for it with a dead weight in poorly qualified staff is another. Have you seen the absolute trash that is being churned out at colleges and training providers? It's a joke, the degree's are laughable as well (and yes I am doing one so I know). The training and knowledge that a vast majority of people in the sector have is so low it makes you cringe when you are recruiting. I've spent the last six weeks recruiting and am still going through the process as the applicants are dire. How they even get out of bed in the morning and drag themselves into existance is beyond my capability of thinking. I often wonder how they manage to get dressed. When people ring in sick because, and I quote, "It's raining", I seriously believe they should pay me for the privilege of allowing them to work.
Comparisons to other business's is pointless. Supermarkets can afford to pay high wages, why do you think they all started offering financial services? It's almost like stamping your foot and shouting "it's not fair" because someone else gets paid more for a job you deem less meaningful than your own. The money for shelf stacking in my opinion is worth it, the job is utterly boring. Business pay to what the company can afford to pay, and what they deem is appropriate to the turnover. Its not good only turning over 200k and trying to pay 8 staff 20k a year. The government have done an excellent job of over spending, and telling us to spend spend spend. Now we are suffering for it. Comparing private to public sector shouldn't be done either as its not a true comparison.
I am happy in my job and the wages I get because I chose it. Yes I'd love more money, who wouldn't. You want more money then find a job that pays more, if you are living beyond your means then you need a reality check. Choose the job to fit the lifestyle you want. If you don't like the job, then weigh up how badly you want the lifestyle.
My original answer to the question still remains the same.
by: whmon
Lolly,
In answer to your statement, 'But just ask yourselves one questions why the bloody hell should we live and get by on low pay.'
The fact is, you don't have to. But in a sector that can only afford to offer low pay, you really are on a hiding to nowhere by compaining about it. I don't mean to sound harsh, but by staying in a job that offers low pay when you are clearly not happy about it, you are only building up resentment and dissatisfaction for yourself.
My advice would be to leave your present job and find another unrelated occupation that offers better pay, such as bin collection (which you mentioned). Or, stay in your present field but try to promote yourself within that field. There are plenty of jobs within the sector that offer better pay, such as area SENCO officer or Early Years Advisor, etc. Many of the people in those posts started out on a nursery floor.
However, those posts are determined on qualifications. Those people have all of the normal childcare qualifications, but have gone on to get other qualifications too.
Basically, a level 3 in childcare (or anything else) is one of the lowest qualifications you can hold. If a level 3 afforded a decent wage, why bother to go on to achieve anything higher? The country would stagnate.
As in any job, anything below degee level (I mean 6, not 4) is generally considered 'low-level', hence the wage. In fact, in higher level jobs, level 6 is now considered as the basic.
RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 09-04-10 16:47by: Lolly
Firstly, yes I picked this career, yes I am qualified to level 3 for which if felt I worked hard for my qualification, learnt a lot and this has considerably improved my practice which benefits the children I look after. I am currently looking at pursuing further qualifications to better my knowledge and my prospects. I am happy with my job, I am not building up resentment and dissatisfaction in myself. I do not live beyond my means or have an extravagant lifestyle. I'm sorry that most people feel these days that a level 3 qualification is crap and worth nothing and degree's are worth everything, because on the job training and a good few years of experience I feel is better than a piece of paper stating theory. If everybody pulled together, then things might change, I'm all for people power.
Yes I do understand economics and that nurseries can only pay so much and as I have stated before I do not want a fortune but just a bit more for the honest hard days work that I do.
I thought that most people on this forum would be in the same boat and would support a better wage, I obviously thought wrong. But it's nice to know that I and other level 3's are considered 'low-level'. Because with comments like that it only spurs me on the study and work harder, eventually run my own nursery, employ staff on a reasonable wage and not the minimum. Those who have made such negative comments need not apply.
Bye and thanks for nothing (so much for pulling together).
RE: RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 14-04-10 15:45by: sarah
Lolly
sorry but you are living in a fantasy world if you honestly think owing your own nursery you will pay higher wages. I have owned my own nursery for 7 years i dont get even the minimum wage as the owner and you can not afford alot more than minimum wage for staff you have to balance fees against running costs and the fact that you are not always full. Then you get the parents who run off without paying outstanding bills and dont even get me started on the funding thats paid in arrers so your always behind with those fees. Open your eyes please and seriously look at exactly how much it costs to operate a nursery
by: Maestro
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/QualificationsExplained/DG_10039017
L3 is equivalent to A-Levels, 2 I believe it is suppose to be. In my opinion its not, and I would see it more as a reference point. The bar has been brought down by the poor framework served up at colleges and training providers. It's bums on seats and the quality has suffered.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/EducationAndLearning/QualificationsExplained/DG_10039029
The best quote in that lot... "Completing an NVQ can lead to further training at the next NVQ level. You could go all the way to a level 5 NVQ and/or professional qualifications"
You've done a level 3, so now go and do a professional qualification... sucks to be us... maybe...
So yes we are low-level, and the government recognise it.
RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 09-04-10 22:48by: kimme
Hi All,
Well, I for one am really pleased to hear someone else talking with such passion about their chosen careers.
I have been in the position of supporting (temporarily) 2 adults on a Nursery Nurses wage. Though this was about seven years ago now. Being employed by a County Council my wage would have been better than many private sector posts - it also meant that I had the school holidays to find extra work.
It was a very stressful time, but yes it was possible though life was certainly "on the edge". I would definitely agree that it can be a very positive experience, though I am delighted to no longer be in this situation.
At the time I was too engrossed in getting by to think too much about it but on reflection I do feel quite bitter. Back then I couldn't even consider starting my own family. Yet I look around and see so many families (especially in this line of work) where there is no wage earner and yet there are no such concerns about "getting by" indeed there seems to be plenty for what I consider luxuries (even now).
There are numerous aspects to this debate but I too am shocked that so many seem to be supporting the case for low pay. Is it a living wage? If we don't believe in ourselves then how can we expect anyone else to believe in us? If don't believe in ourselves, are we really the right people to be playing such a key part in young children's lives?
I am very proud of my NN diploma. I know how much I and the others on my course put into actually getting the qualification (13 years ago). It was no foregone conclusion- less than half of those who started actually got their certificate. It seems as though standards have slipped but that does not take away my knowledge, qualiifactions and experience!
I am currently trying to stop plans by our county council to make NN's obselete - this will mean losing our titles so that they can justify cutting our pay by a third (bringing us in line with unqualified Teaching Assistants) what a joke. Is this what we want for the future of childcare and education? Is this what we want our country to aspire to? Is this what parents beleive in? Is this why I have been paying a union for?
I know that there may be some working in the private sector who feel that if they aren't getting it why should we in state settings? We all need to stop taking this so personally and start asking some more fundamental questions. Is this quality? Now seems like a good time to be questioning MPs directly. I for one have been amazed......the children we care for now represent the future of this country......we need to stand up and be counted not just for ourselves but the greater good.
by: whmon
Lets get things into perspective here regarding wages. 1-8, 1-4, 1-3,
1-8, forget it. The schools are getting them.
1-3, the parent has to pay one third of the wage, one third of the holiday pay, one third of the employer NIC, a pecentage of the cook and cleaners wage, a percentage of the cook and cleaners holiday pay and a percentage of the employers NIC for the cook and cleaner.
1-4, slightly better but not by much
Then, these figures are doubled by the running costs of the business (I don't lie here.)
Often, on a quiet day the poorly paid staff are earning more than the owner (and try to think about the financial risk the owner has taken in spending years studying, earning (saving) enough money to buy a nursery, giving you a job and growing grey hair in the process)
by: Dons
People get on such a band wagon about wages in this sector. If I think of what I earned when I started this career and what I earn niw, there has been a reater apreciation of the work we do. It's a catch 22 situation as funding is not a bottomless pit, regardless if it comes from fees, govt funding, grants, whatever. Part of my wages is job satisfaction. I LOVE what I do and if the gifts and comments I get from the parents arre anything to go by, then I am doing my job well.
I came into this job knowing what the pay was like. Yes I am not impressed that my husband gets better paidas an IT person while I am working with such precious resources, but life is to short to get bitter and twisted about it. I have one life and want to enjoy it while i am here.
Can't put a price on job satisfaction, enjoyment etc. Maybe cliiched but that s how it is for me.
by: Tallulah
I think the govt should fund the private sector as well so that they can pay staff higher wages.
by: Maestro
Where would this money come from? The government are in massive amounts of debt.
We'd only pay for it in higher taxes and then prices increase for goods and services, and we are back to square one.
by: Tallulah
Well in Ireland where I live they have started a free pre-school scheme which has given our childcare sector a great boost. and parents can choose to avail of their place in private centers or state funded ones so it's fairer. Where I live the private centers were struggling to compete as there are so many funded ones with low fees. This scheme has evened the keel, plus the centers get extra funding if they have a graduate leading the room. Granted, they did cut the early childhood supplement (which was paying E1000 per year to parents of children under five irrespective of means)at the same time as this scheme came out, so when one hand gives the other takes away I suppose. But at least now its guaranteed that the child directly benefits from the payment.
by: Maestro
Do you get tax credits in Ireland or anything similiar? €1000 is not much, our parents would be livid!
The government pay them absolutely loads, one family was receiving £12,000 per year for childcare alone, for two children. This was on top of all other benefits she got. It just silly how much the goverment pay out in benefits. I get loads of grief from staff wanting to go part time, or when recruiting (still at present arrgh) from staff that would like part time. If they do the minimum hours, then the government top it up to full time. If they work extra, the government doesn't pay them as much but they still get the same money overall. Guess what everyone wants to do... Work as little as needed for the maximum amount!
RE: RE: Living in the UK on a childcare wage. - 14-04-10 21:33by: Tallulah
Well one of my assistants is on a job scheme which equates to being on benefits and her husband is out of work too and with their three kids she says they are very comfortable. She says that they would be worse off working than they are now. Actually with their council houses and benefits my assistants are coming out with much more than me at the end of the week. The E1000 I mentioned is a supplement that they were paying to everyone - you could be a doctor or lawyer and still get it. Aside from that an unemployed aduls gets around 200 euros a week (and I think its around fifty extra for each child plus childrens allowance which is paid monthy- do't know how much)and rent allowance if they are renting privately plus medical cards. We don't have free health care and have to pay doctors bills of 35 - 45 euros per visit which can add up - prescriptions have to be paid for too. With asthma on a minimum wage you can up paying the best part of 150 euros for a visit to the doctor and inhalers. The govt has introduced a scheme here whereby people can work and keep their benefits for experience. Most of the childcare jobs that are advertised now are these work for free postions - I think it must help a lot of the centres must be struggling to break even.
by: sunshine 2010
I have recently finished my Early Childhood Studies degree and got a 2:1 and am due to start my EYP soon. Then I am going to do my masters. I only get paid £6 an hour but I dont mind really. I live with my husband and child in a 2 bed flat (mortgaged) and am planning on having another child. I expect the 4 of us will live in here until they move out but its not really a big deal to me.
I dont claim any benefits except childcare (80%) and child benefit. My husband is only on a low wage as well as we live in a seasonal holiday place. I love my job and the place I live so how much I get paid is irrelevant really.
by: Dons
i think the 2 most important things in society are health and education. I don't mind paying tax to these 2 things to keep our society healthy and educated.