Advice for non-qualified providers

Advice for non-qualified providers

by: whmon - 07-01-13 18:42

An Ofsted Inspector told me today that although it has not been well publicised, and is little known - during your Ofsted Inspection you should NOT be present during the 'Management Meeting' unless you have EYFS qualifications, or a complete and full knowledge of the EYFS or you will be marked down as Satisfactory, despite your Manager's and staff's expertise. Even if your nursery deserves an Outstanding grade, you will be marked down. You can still own a nursery/chain without either qualifications or a complete understanding of the new EYFS but you MUST NOT be present during the Management meeting.

by: Tish501

Hi Whmon,are you sure of this...surely your grade is decided before you go into the office for the meeting since all info stored on his/her laptop....this would be discrimination really...if it wasnt for us unqualified (on paper ) owners....all our staff would not have a job and nor would the inspectors since they would have less settings to inspect.....did you get visited today then ??

by: me

yes i have heard this as unqualified owners do not have the qualification to manage or advise. they have to trust the manager they have employed. 

by: whmon

Tish, you have the option of going into the meeting or not. But beware - once you have gone into the meeting you will be graded Satisfactory. If any provider is not qualified - STAY AWAY!

by: whmon

Tish - Ofsted told me that they are trying to reduce the numbers of unqualified owners because unqualified owners 'stay in their ivory towers doing nothing while creaming off the profits'. (As if!!!) unquote. Feeling a bit miffed right now.

by: Tish501

I am miffed too.Here i sit at my laptop at 9pm printing Information packs,updating them to include newest member of staff,adding her information to our staff file,filling in her crb online,filing her P45 online,tracking down courses for her to maintain the standards all my staff keep.My day off tomorrow consists of accounts for the whole day.Unqualified I may be but passionate about my nursery definitely.I know of some owners in their ivory towers and brand new BMWs ....but most of us are not like that ....thank goodness.

by: whmon

Tish - I believe it is Ofsted who are in their ivory towers not us. Grrrrr

by: Tish501

Have you been inspected recently then Whmon ??? Ours due VERY soon I am guessing

by: whmon

Yep! today. Was expecting Good but wondering about Outstanding... obviously can't say what we got until it's official but you can probably read between the lines. I have to say that I am totally bewildered by it, I was not expecting this in a million years and it is not right. The Inspector was knocked over by some of the things we have in place saying she had never seen that anywhere before. I, my manager, team, and the staff have outdone themselves over the last couple of years. I had made it my mantra to not get a week over without introducing something really special to the nursery over the last couple of years. TBH I really did think we had a possible outstanding looming. Staff and EYA's thought we had a very strong good with some outstanding aspects...

Waited four years for this inspection. Four years down the drain!

by: Tish501

Prob can guess....I am not expecting good results.....my nursery fine....full...very popular but just do not trust Ofsteds judgement of any of us anymore.But saying that  it is the parents who decide whether you sink or swim.......so keep your chin up-- OFSTED DO NOT AFFECT THE SUCCESS OF YOUR BUSINESS......you,your staff and all who support u do that....day by day...year in year out.....through all the endless rules,curriculum changes,government cuts AND *******!! You know what we have to put up with....just be thankful it is over  ...and only comes about once very 4 years....xx

by: whmon

Thanks for that Tish. I am so dissappointed though that I am thinking that it is not worth the bother and I am thinking about selling up. We have made so many improvements in the nursery, some of which the inspector said she had never seen before and she thought that all nurseries should be doing that - ppppppsss!

by: Tish501

I know just how you feel whmon,we had the same jan 2009 in the snow,got satisfactory after trying our hardest..she had us in tears (and I was in the room lol)she had no idea of nursery settings.....but after a couple of days we picked ourselves up and carried on....as you will...just think  how many of your parents do you think check ofsted reports online before placing their child with you,,,,they are more likely to chat with a friend with their child already with you....word of mouth is more powerful than an iffy ofsted report....have a stiff drink and carry on---.. don't give up now the worst is over...be strong for all your staffs sake,you have built up a successful business....some days are bad(like today) but mostly they are good,some days excellent..sleep on it u will feel better in the morning i am sure....we know what ofsted are like   they didnt disappoint !!

by: whmon

And to all Ofsted Inspectors reading this, may you know that what goes around comes around. Be happy in your job while you have it.

by: whmon

Thanks Tish

by: Tish501

You r welcome whmon--- do you think they read our posts...hope so -- hope it is their bosses so they can see they are not doing a consistent job....and i do believe in Karma.....if that is the word....they will get their comuppance (?? ) hopefully in the next round of government spending cuts...we can but hope....night xx

by: whmon

Night Tish - you have made me feel much better xxx

by: Marysue

Hi whmon. So sorry to read your post, such a shock for you after all your hard work. I know how you feel, don't let the ******** grind you down. Go to the OFSTED website and have a look at the guidance document for inspectors Conducting Early Years Inspections. On page 7 it says 'ask the manager to contact the provider or nominated person to make them aware of the inspection & provide an opportunity to  be present during the inspection and/or feedback'. Further on it says 'As part of the inspection, the inspector must meet with the provider'. Nowhere does it say that you should not be present at any time. IMO you should appeal against this decision. 

by: whmon

I am going to as soon as I get the document MarySue! Sill feeling raw about it.

by: Tish501

I also checked their site and found the same,but also asked our lovely Inspector who has  just left after a days inspection...she said she had never heard of that and to appeal against it....good luck with that whmon...can u read between the lines about ours today  ??

by: whmon

I can Tish and well done!!!!!!!!

by: Tish501

Thanks Whmon...have got my fingers crossed for you now...but i Know it takes an age to get the report,but I appealed against my last one,got the wording chnaged but not th edecision...but while it is fresh in your mind is best so there is nothing stopping you from organising yourself now,with the evidence,etc... and all you can find to support your claim.....better if someone overheard her comments so u have a witness...so that when the letter arrives you can answer it near enough straight away...did u get feedback form ?

by: whmon

No, we didn't get a feedback form...did you?

by: Tish501

Yes....she sounded like we should all get one...r u sure yours was an ofsted inspector and not an imposter ???Lol

by: whmon

Ha! You've got me wondering now!

by: Tish501

Will look at our feedback form tom...c. if u can get copy online -must have a ref no on it...but youngest daughter 6 days from giving birth and just gone to bed sicky so could be me a few days in Kent if Faye is born,,,but have laptop will travel   lol

by: raramoo

I took my laptop on a minibreak to london with my sister. Sister not happy but stress levels satisfied :-)

by: calypso

What a curious conversation! Out of very genuine interest and with absolutely no intention to offend at all can you say why you haven't any early years qualifications and yet own a nursery? It seems an odd thing to do. How can you ensure standards are high if you have no knowledge of the EYFS or childcare?

by: whmon

Hi Calypso, I employ a manager who looks after the nursery while I look after the business end of things. Both are quite involved jobs so I can imagine that an owner/nursery manager doing both jobs would become a little 'overstretched', maybe even stressed out. I do however take a huge interest in the nursery and have introduced and implemented many beneficial changes. It's a nice little lifestyle for me as I only work 2 or 3 hours per day and spend most of my time walking my dogs in the countryside. As an owner/nursery manager I couldn't do that but as an owner/business manager I can!

No offence taken whatsoever!

by: raramoo

Ah, I need some owner/business manager lifestyle!!! 50 hrs and counting this week!! 

by: calypso

Thank you for your honest reply and for not taking offence :) I owned and managed my nursery as I felt that it could only be operated to my standards if I was there implementing and observing the standards! It is stressful! I do understand the point though of having owners who are early years qualified I preferred to run the nursery and employ someone else to do the finance. I found when I wasn't there I panicked about it but maybe I just hadn't got the right manager 

by: Purple

Its always the minority that spoil for the majority unfortunately. I am a nursery manager and suitable person and I manage a large day nursery sole charge and super numerate. My owners do not owrk in the business and have no childcare experience, qualifications, knowledge, skills and are not interested in the childrens well being or safety one iota??? Sadly they are only interested in the bottom line...£££££ !!! The job is long hours, stress and anxiety with no thanks. So....sadly, Ofsted unfortunately for some, do have a point.

by: whmon

For myself, I can also see the benefits of a nursery having an owner who is not necessarily qualified in childcare. Bear with me and I'll explain why.

As Purple points out above, she has to do everything herself and has long hours, stress and anxiety. In my nursery, the manager is freed up from anything that is not EYFS related. I put 2 to 3 hours in per day doing non-EYFS tasks, therefore I am freeing her up to concentrate solely on EYFS matters.

If I were EYFS qualified and managed the nursery myself, I feel that the business would suffer, how would I find time to conduct forecasts,financial and business analysis etc? I believe many, many very good nurseries have failed and gone out of business simply for this very reason (my nearest competitor being a case in point.) While many qualified nursery owners see the business side of things as secondary to the EYFS, the fact remains that with ANY business, if somebody is not keeping a close eye on the ball the business is liable to fail - however good it may be.

For this reason - even if I did get myself EYFS qualified, I would continue to work the way I do. I would STILL employ a manager for the nursery while concentrating on the business matters.

Calypso works the other way around, (s)he manages the nursery and has someone else managing the finances. Therer is another reason why I don't do this:

When I first bought my nursery the existing manager did everything herself as the owner who I had bought from was 'absent' and only went to the nursery about once or twice per month. The manager had free rein and assumed that this would continue (and as such had become 'sloppy' in covering up her tracks.) She was embezzeling. She would for example take cash payments of say £500 and record the payment as £50, pocketing the rest. She would organise outings and charge the parents for these while also asking the owner to write out a cheque for the outings. She would order 'resources' for the nursery, while these in fact were used as her own childrens' Xmas presents. She used the petty cash as her own personal lunch fund and used the kitchen stores as her own, free shopping supply. This is why I would never again allow somebody else to take charge of the finances. I also look after the staff rota, as the ex-manager would record her hours as 7 am - 6.30 pm, five days per week regardless of how long she was present in the nursery.

Another benefit of a non-qualified owner is that they usually have qualifications and experience over and above EYFS qualifications, and this all adds to the strength of the nursery. Nobody can have qualifications in everything, and an owner who has come up working on the nursery floor and has EYFS qualifications before buying a nursery, is quite likely to have little else, whereas a nursery manager PLUS an owner with 'other' qualifications can between them make for a strong team.

My own qualificationsand experience are helpful to the nursery. I have a level 8 in Anthropology, meaning I have expert knowledge in cultural issues. I have also taught Anthropology in an elite university and I am published.

I also have qualifications in and 14 years experience of teaching EAL as a full time Senior Lecturer, part of my remit was training teachers to teach EAL, and I was regularly hired out to give seminars to the NHS for example, on how to understand make oneself understood to clients who did not have English as a first language.

I also have a qualification in teaching professionals how to identify signs of depression and suicidal tendancies in Asylum seekers (adults and children.) Also, I have a level 4 in Child Psychology.

All of these 'extras' that I bring to the nursery can only be a good thing. Even if I did have EYFS qualifications and managed the nursery myself, I couldn't wear all of those hats at the same time as there would not be enough hours in the day. This is why I believe that an EYFS qualified nursery manager and an owner/ business manager can make a formidable team and can bring great benefits to the nursery at the grass roots level.

by: Tish501

Hear,Hear, Whmon that is how I operate,manager in place but i control the purse strings......not sure how a manager on the floor (not in office all day) can do all the bookwork as well...as everything else....answers on a postcard pls...

by: tripmum

This is very interesting reading! I am currently looking at starting up my own nursery and have just found a property so super excited!!!!! I am a childminder so have knowledge and experience of EYFS but will look at doing mainly the business side of the nursery and have a deputy manager for on the actual floor

by: whmon

Can I also say that as a nursery owner who is not bogged down with EYFS that I have also been instumental in:

1, Getting an EYFS advisor who was 'inadequate' moved on to a different county

2, Changing the ease of parents fraudulently using the tax credits system

3. Challenging, and winning Ofsted's non-compliance with EU Law.

(This may be why Ofsted have a problem with ne?????)

by: Tish501

Poss...they all collude together to share stories from settings i am sure...we havealso reported live in parents for claiming tax credits as single person...but fe;ll on deaf ears...they werent interested...but if that is the case with your recent result,,,you have a case fro discrimination...and perhaps a re-inspection  ??

by: KEITH APPLEYARD

I've had a similar experience. As a 20+ year 'volunteer' Trustee of a Charitable Playgroup, I've taken time off my normal job to be in attendance during the OFSTED Inspection, in case any questions crop up to do with Management Committee, Finances etc.

I've been completely ignored by the OFSTED Inspector, who treated me like the Invisible Man, but never gave me the courtesy of saying there was no need to speak to me. so last time I stayed away completely, and we got our first ever "Outstanding".