by: julie - 19-02-09 18:09
I work in a nursery within a primary school along with a qualified teacher therefore the ratio is 1 adults to 13 children. Does anyone understand why just because the staff are highly qualified they can supervise 26 children, provide education and care, including nappy changes and have time to do observations and assessments for each child. When staff are less qualified the ratios are 1-8.
by: Mickey
doesn't it make sence the more children you have, the more staff required, It seems schools are a separate case
| Age of Children | 6 | 8 | 10 | 12 | 14 | 16 | 18 | 20 | 22 | 24 | 28 |
| Infants (birth to 12 mos.) | 1:3 | 1:4 | |||||||||
| Toddlers (12 to 24 mos.) | 1:3 | 1:4 | 1:5 | 1:4 | |||||||
| 2-year-olds (24 to 30 mos.) | 1:4 | 1:5 | 1:6 | ||||||||
| 2-1/2-year olds (30 to 36 mos.) | 1:5 | 1:6 | 1:7 | ||||||||
| 3-year-olds | 1:7 | 1:8 | 1:9 | 1:10 | |||||||
| 4-year-olds | 1:8 | 1:9 | 1:10 | ||||||||
| 5-year-olds | 1:8 | 1:9 | 1:10 | ||||||||
| 6 to 8 year-olds | 1:10 | 1:11 | 1:12 | ||||||||
| 9 to 12 year-olds |
by: joshuajones
Mick
what are you talking about ??????
Julie, it doesn't make sense does it ?? It makes even less sense when you think that if you have children attending nursery before 9.00 and after 3.30ish they have to be on a 1:8 ratio. Nurseries can adopt a 1:13 ratio if they have an EYPS or L6 worker, but only during school hours.
The world is mad !!
I will be L6 I hope soon, no way are we having a 1:13 ratio! I could get rid of one whole member of staff a day but be dead by the end of the week!
by: Penny Clarke
I am not sure if people realise but the CWDC makes it very clear that the 1:13 adult to child ratio may be applied between the hours of 8am and 4pm where there is QTS or EYPS working directly with children. A level 6 qualification alone is not sufficient. The EYFS statutory framework (appendix 2) refers readers to the CWDC for this current clarification.
Penny
by: Helen W
Aspect has raised with the powers that be on several occasions the apparent contradiction between the higher ratio for an EYP/QTS, at 1:13, and the role of the EYP in particular as someone who is leading expert practice within and across a setting. Our view is that the higher (lower?!) ratio as well as undermining the ability to provide high quality personalised learning and care anyway, is hardly likely either to provide an EYP with the the time or opportunity to support and lead colleagues in delivering the EYFS across the setting.
So in summary, we think this definitely needs revisiting.
Yes Penny but how many day nurseries are going to say that an EYPS or QTS in the building (not necessarily in the room) is enough? A lot of nurseries already flaunt the staff ratios as it is.
Some nurseries are thining of employing an EYPS as an advisor only and they won't necessarily be in direct contact with the children. The criteria to have an EYPS is that they only have to be employed, not necessarily as a manager or leader.
by: RB
whoever is getting 13 children - think themselves lucky! today i was steaming at one point! i had 16 children (including 2 two year olds in my room) and when i told someone to stop passing 2 year olds up because i was already over ratio as it was i was recieved the message that 'in **** (the LA that i live in) and EYP is allowed 15 children!'
well i dont think that can be right. surely the ratios should be standard across the country and not different in each local authority? i want someone to confirm this so i can approach my employer about it because its getting beyond a joke.
and my point exactly - its all very well and good saying we have this eyp status or qts status so legally we are allowed 13, 15, however many children but there is no way you can deliver quality care and education to them when you are on your own with them.
equality to teachers is fine if you are in a school situation with the support of nursery nurses and assistants on a day to day basis, or where children are older and follow a routine of lessons every day and not free play, focus activities, snacks, nappies,..... dont need to go on.
by: melo
The normal nursery ratios make sense to me, even the best mothers in the world cant handle more than 3 babies on their own or more than 8 3to 5 year olds, so the EYPS ratio is barmy!
The thing that is getting me is the space Ofsted say you have to have, 2.5 square metres per baby and 2-3 year old and 2.3 square metres per 3-5 year old. I dont think our bathroom is that big and we can fit the family and the dog in there when we need to!!!
by: Happyabbie
Eppe sugguests now that every nursery should have a qualified teacher within them.
Placement i went to had one and she was trying to supervise a group of 15 children put there coats on in a corridor of 3-5year olds plus watch the member of staff in the room with a child.
Regardless whether they are a teacher or not children at different ages need more help than school aged children so those rules should apply when they are working as a teacher in a school and be a back up plan if they are over ratio at the nursery.
Now i am rather confused over what the ratio actually is.
by: drcrabbere
This is clear to me as in my day (1984) It is a status thing; and the senior teachers/head have to go along with under- rating nursery nurses for obvious reasons.
Teachers are generally challenged by someone with nursery qualifications. They know that nursery nurses are more qualificed in the area of pre-school skills, experience and observations so within their circle and higher up they promote that they are more capable - forgetting that the idea of having Nursery Nurses were created because teachers could not cope!
I have worked with teachers who were absolutely useless at getting the children's attention and when I did it; I was immediately re-assigned.
When I was at college the class did a project on teacher training curriculum. The have very little experience with pre-school children; if any.
Aim higher Julie; you have the potential. Go girl!
by: Karine
How many teachers actually have undertaken child development to be able to understand the concept of individual needs? - Most have learnt to teach the group as a whole.
by: Mandy
Millie we were having this conversation at uni a few weeks ago. The guys that i am with have all done a nursery nurse qualification and have now decided to go into teaching. We where discussing the fact that it should be compulsory for anyone going into teaching to do child development as part of their training rather than just learning curriculum subjects, it will never happen but is a good idea.
by: Clarelou
Usually, those who work in schools earn almost twice as much as those in the private sector, have a school pension and sick pay. Not to mention getting paid for the full year not just 38 weeks of it. There are a few benefits! Also, these ratios are stated as the minumum, it is at the discretion of employers to increase it if they feel it is necessary. I agree, it is very difficult often, to maintain high standards. i think we should be telling the parents what exactly we are expected to do. Th trouble is that most of us just get on with it without making a fuss, or because we haven't the time or energy to complain at the end of the day. Because we all want good OFSTED reports, many of us also take stuff home to do. Until we are all brave enough to make a stand, at the risk of looking incompetent because another incident is recorded on a form and something else happens which possibly shouldn't have (because we were so knackered from being overworked). I have started doing risk assessments for things I think may affect my staff's welfare just to bring it to the forefront - like working alongside children who need more than their fair share of their ratio of staffing. This will cover you when something does go wrong and help you to point out your issues to employers, puts the ball back in their court. Good luck.
by: RB
but if you are a teacher in a private nursery clarelou you still have all those things on no where near as much money as a teacher in a school. i am doing everything you mentioned for £6 an hour! nurseries just cant afford it.
by: tilly
i'm studying to be an eyp and it makes no sense to me. When you are doing nappies, finding wellies, getting children off to sleep an eyp can't do that with thirteen any easier than the average mother could. I think the best we can do is hold a group of thirteen's attention with a well planned activity or assess 13 children's abilities at a task at once, but no better than someone with plenty of experience. It's nonsense especially when you look at how much importance the eyfs puts on 'special relationships'. I don't have time for special relationships I'm looking for 13 pairs of un-named gloves!