Sure Start - Targeted or Universal?

Sure Start - Targeted or Universal?

by: Debs - 27-06-09 15:47

I wish to request your views and opinions on some research I am carrying out with regards to Sure Start Services.

 Do you think that all services within a Childrens Centre should be open to every child and family regardless of there circumstances, economic background or location.

Or, is it appropraite to have targeted services which are restricted to specific children and their families.  

Your comments would be really apprecaited.

Thankyou. 

by: Lolo

There was an article recently about children's centres being colonised by the middle classes.

I think there should be a mixture.  Open sessions give the place a buzz, but focused sessions can really help target groups in the community.  These can be advertised differently, so it is not a case of people feeling exluded.

In a CC near us there is a young parents group and a new communities group.  There are also 3 play sessions - one for childminders, two for all carers.  

by: motherofall

sure start in my area and i beleive this goes for the rest as well, targets the lower class in the area who they beleive are under previledge in certain area in their life.for instance, due to language barrier, they have asian group session, turkish group session etc. if this is the time i have to take the kids out to play, we can not go in because we do not belong to that group. however the session they have open for everyone, gets crowded beause ALL will still attend causing the place to be I say overcrowded. i think all session should be open to everyone. understandable focused session help target groups but where do we draw the line of equality?

by: iggyfishtank

I do not breleive they should be offered for all. The middle/upper clases have the money or skills to buy these services in. If the idea of sure start is to help those whocannot help themselves due to language barriers, poverty, exclusion, mental health issues, physical imparement. If we do have a labour government that (somewhere behind all the guff) beleives in re distibuting wealth and ensureing there is less difference between people then we need to ensure it is targeted at the areas of poverty etc.Otherwise the middle/upoper classes will just dominatethe services as they have the skills to approach profesionals and find out about any help/service they may need. The poor are poor becuase they dont have the skills to get on so need all the help they can get. Not meaning that in a cruel way having a go. its just the way I see it broadly. Of course there will be notable exceptions but boradly that is the case.

The problem with is is that is stigmatises the people they are meant to help. By the very nature of sticking a Children centre in an area means the area has been identified as having a need. Certain people will also be identified as having to get support which means a judgement has been made on them. 

The conservative have put fwd the idea that all people will be given 3 (i think) visits by a health vistor. No stigma, everyone gets it so no problems, right? Wrong. They are going to scrap SS and other intervention which will leave the poorest and most vunerable people to struggle on apart from the 3 visits by a helaht visotor who will of course be able to give all the expert advice that a childrens centre would give 5 days a week.Its anonsense to please the rich that boradly make up their votes.

by: Lolo

iggyfishtank, while I broadly agree with you on most points, I do not see that having Children's Centre marks out an area of need.  Our borough has 14, distributed fairly evenly across.  They are focal points for all services to do with children.    Remember that poverty is not the only issue affect parents that might cause them to need professional help - what about postnatal depression or disability? 

And while i agree that the poor tend to remain poor because they are unable to access key services, and are less able to play the system than middle class families, it doesn't mean the middle class families can afford to get private support as good as the support offered through a Children's Centre.  

by: motherofall

quite right Lolo me as a person and a childminder, i do not class myself to be middle class hence the reason why this services should be open to all. as a mother of 2 children under 5years of age, tax credit don't look at me neither do i get subsidised that lower class gets or tax credit that middle class receives. so where does that leave the group like me? because i have no obvious barrier that sure start class as certain economic background, my children looses out either way they turn. i still maintain that it should be open for all and let the families make a decision whether they want to make use of the facilities at the time that it suits them.

by: Lolo

Motherofall - I don't quite get your point about Tax Credits - how do you mean that they don't look at you and you don't get them?  A

by: billabong

I'm almost certain that as a teacher I'd be classed as middle class by 'iggyfishtank' but hey get this, I worked really hard to get where I am and I'm still working hard. I pay my taxes and I have every right to expect to be treated and to recieve the same benifits that everyone alse does or can. So 'iggyfishtank' think on because without my hefty middle class tax contributions there would be no Sure Start centres that you believe should exclude the likes of me.

by: motherofall

Lolo, as a childminder, i have to look after my own children bcos according to the law, they are my responsibility, yet i cannot work fully as a childminder bcos my children are counted in the ratio of how many children i am allowed to look after. tax credit don't reimburse you for your own children unless they attend registered childcare which is obviously not me and i'm still not allowed to attend sure start session when i believe my children needs it. like billabong said i still contribute (even if not a lot) to this sure start thingy and i do not see the reason why i should mbe told you cannot use it when it is open.

by: Lolo

Oh, I see.  I thought you meant you didn't get any tax credits, but you mean you don't get them for the childcare element.   

 I have said in both threads on this topic, that I feel there should be both universal and targeted provision through children's centres.  Perhaps this could be easily managed by having the targeted groups in the afternoons, which are less popular times.  This is what we do with Young parents groups.

Billabong - you do not have an absolute entitlement to every provision.  All public services are targeted according to need.  The NHS does this - we only get the tests and checks that are relevant, we don't get an MOT like a car, and like some private providers offer.  Social housing is an example of this -  we are not all entitled to a council house, just people who are unable to afford suitable housing through other means.  Education is another example - children with additional needs get more input than those without.  

by: curly

I can see Iggy's point but there are some wider issues that may have not been considered.

Encouraging middle class parents to setting can raise the overall achievement of all children's language development. It is now accepted that children from middle-class homes have a broader range of linguistic and communication skills which can benefit other children simply through association and play. That may also work for behaviour as well.

Also affulent/middle-class parents bring money and professional skills to a children's centre which which could be harnessed for the benefit of all children.

Also mental health can affect anyone and all children should have the right for their parent to easily access such services through CC not just because of their social class.

Inclusion IS about all children but it also means some children will need more help than others to achieve their potential and so will need targetted intervention tailored especially to their need.

by: GailB

I live in an area of massive deprivation and our communities Childrens Centre, and the Sure Start that came before, took over all the playgroups that ran in the area. As the funding declines so does the amount of groups in the area. The more 'affluent' of us, who were happy to contribute to the running of a group, now have nowhere to go as the groups target those families that fall into their 'ideal' remit.

by: curly

What area do you live in GailB?

by: Karine

I can safely say that most middle class people in my area do not tend to use the centres - purely because of the stigma attached and sadly what they term as the type of people that frequent it as they do not wish their children to be considered the same as those attending it.

This is not my viewpoint - so please do not jump at me.

Also if the conservatives get in - then their will be no Childrens centres as they wish to employ more Health Visitiors to attend to childrens needs - as they did in the good old days - problems with speach and language etc., were picked up far in advance of today.

So I wonder where we stand - if they disband children centres - then what will they do with the buildings and the staff in each and every one of them.

As for childminders - they are welcome into the play and Learn Sessions specifically for childminders.  But are excluded from parent ones if they are deemed to be working in a professional capacity with other children.  So they are not being excluded if you like, but being signposted to a suitable resource which can support them within their role as a professional childminder.

by: Lolo

Millie, the division of a parents group and a childminder group really annoys me.  I am a childminder and don't like exclusively CM groups as there can be a lot of office politics and also poor practice because there are no "outsiders".  They can. however, be a great way to access support.  I would resent being excluded from a group if I was working, as I have friends who are mums and dads and would like to meet up with them, and that would be difficult. It also discriminates against the child who is unable to access a (perhaps superior) play session because of his family circumstances (being looked after by a CM and not a parent).  In the borough where I work, the childminding group runs mixed sessions, which support childminders, but also enable parents to find out more about childminding.

by: billabong

Lolo, I CAN and DO expect to recieve the same entitlements as everyone alse BECAUSE I pay into them. Don't even try to be so patronising, thankyou.

by: Lolo

Billabong, I wasn't aware that I was being patronizing.  Clearly I have hit a nerve.

You are wrong, though, when you say you have the same entitlement to every service because you have paid taxes.  You are only entitled on the basis of need, not the basis of what you have paid.  I thought my examples were quite straight forward.  

I worked as a learning support assistant providing some 1 to 1 support for a child with a language and communication disorder.  He was entitled to this because he had a learning difficulty and needed that support to cope with a mainstream school setting.  Not every child is entitled to 20 hours of individual learning support, however much their parents have paid in taxes.  yes, they would all benefit from it, but not all of them need it.

Does this make sense?  

by: mickey

Question... Are Children's Centre's Needed

Answer...Why are there so many, So Obviously they are required

If like said above Via a Poster, Sure Start Focus on, The lower end of the scale, The Im Sorry, Sure start are being selective, is this what childcare is going to ? If so, Then Sure Start, Should hold there heads in the toilet bowl, And it should be flushed.

The UK Have a really good child child network, Be it Nannies Nurseries etc. jump over to a third world country, SAY such as the West Midlands, WHOOPS i meant Africaetc, No Money, Wide spread HIV and AIDS, Do they still have some kind of care for their child YES, If Sure Start are being selectivem Like mentioned above, Then Sure Start, Should pack their thing and fly to Iraq / Africa and other countries that really have no money, But do not and are not selective in what children they have on their books.

Send Billabong off to a third world country, for 6 Months, Then get back here and Moan, Bloody grow up, Whats up with you.

Go watch a Bob the Builder DVD you may learn something.

Sure Start May be a good thing, MAY. BUT as a company grows and gets bigger, Is'nt it all about money, Shares etc. I would have action for Kids any day over Sure Start, But saying this, So much money goes to the men up stairs, and it does'nt go to the grass roots where it is required....

Please someone reading this, PLEASE explaihn to me, What Sure Start Stand for and what they actually do. DO for a child , A Parents....And people have the cheak to knock Private Day Care .....

i will leave this by saying.... Obviously, We are all born into this crap world the same way, We grow up (NOT ME THOUGH) We work, Get a pension, Get Old and DIE ....FACT.... In between, some may do one thing, you may do another, Some get bloody rich , Ask Katie , No Talent Price, Some  Have n live on hand outs, some become MPS and rip us all off.

The point is, It does'nt matter what you have in your pocket, We all end up DEAD, Even i know that, So dividing us into classes, Is ermmm Well it sounds like roll ex..ummmmm

We are all gods Children , In my case Im gods Baby at 40 ah ah, Thats why no one will employ me, Oh well, I will becokme a grave digger, Sooner or later YOU will see me, Digging a hole lol.

Lastly, I have to say This Post, Is deep, and i'm sure some people on here will be getting into the ring to fight it out, So ermmmm i'm off for the moment,,,, This sun is doing me in.... Take care all.....

by: billabong

Really LOLO how interesting, my severly dyslexic son who desperatly needed extra support in the maintained system received SWEET F A. SO I know all about paying your way and receiving nothing. You're right though it did hit a cord THANK GOODNESS I had enough left after paying my taxes to afford to be able to send him to private school, an option not left to my hard working and OH TAX PAYING friends!!!!!

by: Karine

Hey guys its a really sensitive topic - yet again!!

To be honest some parents have asked that Childminders do not attend their sessions as they feel threatened by the professional element that some childminders bring (thank goodness they see childminders as professionals). 

When working childminders are meant to be in a professional capacity - some work short of this (and I do say some so please do not hit back) and therefore can give other professional childminders a bad name.

Also the play and learn sessions are pitched at a different level - for childminders they are meant to be run in relation to meeting the EYFS requirements whereby they can take photographs of the children undertaking activities, (to also obtain copies of the centres theme of the week, which then can take home and which the childminder can show ofsted they are working in partnership with another in relation to the childs development and learning, which can be a sensitive issue if parents are around.  On the other hand play and learn sessions for parents are also meant to help those parents understand the benefits of play, staff will role model language, child development elements etc., 

Children centres have a remit - for the different community groups and they are seperate for a reason as the centres have an agenda for each group. -

Their is always a hidden agenda which the government have and staff are employed to queitly carry these out.  If they could we would all be cloned, take a chill pill, wear different clothes on the outside to show that we are different - but still chant the same mantra.