superhero and gun play

superhero and gun play

by: julie - 13-01-09 20:50

I am doing a dissertation as part of a BA in early childhood studies on superhero and gun play in early years settings and would really appreciate opinions from other settings. Why do you think boys engage in this type of play? What do you think children learn from this type of play? Do you think it is acceptable to allow superhero and gun play in early years settings? From your experiences do you think that there is a pattern in the ages that children develop this type of play?

by: mickey

Julie , what a really interesting issue, you bring up Some super hero's still used a little force, superman / spider man / etc even though we used to love them as kids ourselves , Hero's . my gosh im sure you could write books on this issue. Why do children get hooked on a superhero, look no further than the tv media, newspaper adverts radio airplay adds, Oh yes and the main one, indirectly, the parents . Let me explain my comments, The media advertise so called super horeos , The child gets hooked, so to speak, Mom can i have, Mom i want, then the parent gives in and buys Child A, the hero products, DVD etc. After this the child is hooked on super heros (SO Called) so called SUPER heros, that clearly demonstate violence on-screen W.W.F OMG what happens in this , i would'nt allow any child of mine to watch this, and theres another point, is'nt it the parents role to edit what there little ones view on T.V Bob the Builder, seem like a nice guy , works hard and sings along the way, we are all happy, What does'nt help is the film makers , making cartoon heros intoDVD films look at the hulk and spiderman, need i say more , Lets go back in time, for us oldies, do you recall the atari 2600 , with space invaders, dig dug, PcMan oh my life , i love PcMan ,the games of today , well god sake, they come with a 18Certificate, do young children play these games, you tell me, but i guess so. As for gun's again with todays culture, you could write a book on this subject, in the 80's you never heard of gun's drugs, people being stabbed, right here right now, just turn on the news, to see what youngster is the latest knife crime victim. This is a tough one so i hope some one posts on this subject, but to me, i would like to know this--- Parents buy play gun's for children (WHY) Is it the children watching  films on T.V with Gun's in them, Even emmerdale as had gun's in the show, emmerdale and east enders, I could run off at least one hundred films here and know that have guns in them and shooting, HERE COMES THE (MY) VIEWS i would guess SOME parents really dont care what there children watch, So they watch, lets say Old re-runs of the A-Team (EXAMPLE ONLY) look at the guns in that, mommy i want a gun , A child only needs to watch SKY NEWS to see guns , the gaza conflict . look within the last twnety four hours because of prince harry , being a complete racist, the news showed him with a machine gun, a child watching this, well may be he just may want one from santa, then again may be not, but the fact (FACT) is the child as seem it, the message may have got to the brain of the child, gun,gun,gun. With todays culture of gun / knife crime as silly as this may sound, doe the shops need to take them off the shelves , you tell me, but i think so, will the shops do this (UMM) what ever, i hope this helps and all the other comments to follow, this should be a interesting issue, 

by: purepurple

just a thought, but maybe boys like superheroes because they recognise the lack of male role models in their life?

by: Karine

Love this topic!

 Everyone needs a superhero in their life!! - For your dissertation their are gender issues to be explored - is it just  boys that look as if they are hurting people by violence through their play? Are they actually hurting friends or just being boisterous, jumping, shouting expending energy as boys have always done?- also superhero play is excellent to explore with children - using discussion of good and bad behaviour, peoples feelings - its the way practitioners handle and help children explore this play that matters.  Girls use superheroes in a different way, although outwardly not as boisterous they often manipulate freindships and scenarios that also can have a negative effect on the child's outcome. - Children learn from role models around them.  If practitioners were on hand to support this type of play, the children would learn an enormous amount about freindships, expected behaviour and outcomes of negative behaviour.  At our setting we encourage superhero play, particularly for boys, outside I can guarantee that although we do not specifically supply guns/knives they always appear in their play - it is how we manage this when it happens.  In 10 years we have never had a child physically hurt through this play (I know hard to believe!) as we have always supplied sufficient positive role play areas to support their interests - we have made our own superhero up - which encouraged looking after people young and old.

You can not overall protect a child from what is LIFE - we have soldiers (think about those working with children from parents who come from this background) How would you enable them to explore their parents work and background in a positive light? It would be wrong not to explore it.....also one day this child may have a strong belief to protect his country, which is his right to do so....this is real life our history is benchmarked with war and many superheroes. 

Although you can not protect throughout life you can provide them with understanding of right and wrong and this certainly has been explored through our superhero play. I find that also female practitioners are the ones that often shy away or are horrified at the thought of having to allow such play.  But check out research on this and I think it may broaden minds.

Please note I am not advocating violence in any way .

Cant wait to see other discussions on this

RE: RE: superhero and gun play - 14-01-09 10:23

by: Annette

Penny Holland wrote an interesting book on this subject, 'We Don't Play With Guns Here: War, Weapon and Superhero Play in the Early Years' (OUP).

The DCSF also released a paper on how boys play differently to girls last year, which may be worth looking at: 'Confident, capable and creative: supporting boys' achievements: Guidance for practitioners in the Early Years Foundation Stage' is at www.standards.dcsf.gov.uk.

Searching on 'superhero' in the archive on this site also brings up lots of background information. 

by: Mrs. A

I see not point in stopping boys or girls for that matter playing with or pretending to make toy guns my view is it is better that they get it out their system now when they are using ones made from lego than do it 10-15 years down the line when they could probably get hold of a real one! Unfortunatly they are part of life and i don't think there is any point in pretending they are not, it's just a type of role play and something most of them grow out of. Let them do it in a safe environment with responsible adults who can allow children to explore this while at the same time educating them on the dangers and others feelings around this subject

by: Mickey

MissA . If i was asked at a job interview about this topic, i wouldn't be saying those comments to a nursery , manager, I'm led to understand that Nursery Nurse staff, are meant to be and are positive role models, . I would be letting myself down if i encouraged role play with guns. Interesting comments MissA i wonder if others reading this post would agree with your comments, lets wait and see

by: Karine

Hi Bob the builder

I understand where MisA is coming from.  She is not advocating gun play, but it is a realistic attitude that she is taking.  boys at the end of the day need support if they should pick up a stick and pretend that it is a gun.  You can not stand their in utter shock horror and say you cant play with guns.  What you can do is to explore superhero and weapon play.  Try reading a case study entitled "Spiderman Story (2007) Thomas Coram Centre 2007.  Again as Annette mentioned, read

Penny Holland wrote an interesting book on this subject, 'We Don't Play With Guns Here: War, Weapon and Superhero Play in the Early Years' (OUP).  It makes really good reading on how to support this type of play. 

Readers, please note, gun play is no longer a taboo subject in nurseries and should be approached in the same way as everyother theme/topic and individual interest - that is supported by practitioners positively for the best interest of the child.

Bob The Builder - how would you deal with a child that comes from a family of soldiers - soldiers that have been brave enough to fight for your country and the child of that family are linked strongly into this framework.  How do you tell a child that they must not play with guns or knives as they are bad - does this or will this lead the child to believe that their family members are bad? =a good issue and debate topic this one.

by: Tish501

``Hi everyone..i actually did a workshop last summer called From Bob the Builder to Batman......lots of practitioners there of course....the Course Leader led some heated debates that day on what we do in our respective settings...some allow gun and superhero play..and have the dress up to encourage it...others were not so sure and did not allow it....the course leader was very good and explained that the boys especially from a very early age loved their superheroes....and would imitate them anyway they could-- as we know-- drumsticks,chopsticks,stickle bricks make excellent weapons......some say " we don't have guns at Nursery ".others channel the energy by gently explaining the danger of real weapons.....we were left that day with some good ideas for superhero play...but not forced to fall one side of the fence or the other.......the debate I'm afraid will go on endlessly...

by: Mickey

hi Millie, like you i kind of understand what missA is saying, She is right in the respect, with today's society , gun's are every where, from TV shows etc. I know as a nursery nurse, we obviously don't have such toys in the nursery, but some parents, do buy them for their children and i guess as a parent that is there prerogative.  I'm not sure that its a problem with the toy gun, i would guess ,its what a gun reprosents and what the real deal can do..

Tish501, You have made some good points above, And i think its fair comment to say that, some super heros use weapons . But like you say this topic could'nt be resolved here, what happened to the days of a nice cuddly bagpuss teddy. Saying that when i walk past a local park seeing children using their fingers as gun's with no play gun in sight, makes me ponder, But i think this issue is'nt going to be reolved any time soon, mores the pitty though. 

by: Karine

Your right Bob the builder - the issue will never be resolved.

What we need to address here is how practitioners can support boys in achieving.  It is a known fact that boys under achieve - why because females tend to be the ones who predominantly work with these children.  I am not being sexist - funny enough my gender is female!! - but as a practitioner and assessor/trainer the amount of times I go into settings and see the usual dolls house/ cafe role play areas - always the same often geared around the girls who seem to dominate this area. Infact everything is geared around to a calm atmosphere, being quiet in pre-school/nursery until outside play is allowed-which is never enough.  Boys naturally need to expel their energies - when left to their own devises with freinds they usually turn to some sort of superhero play.  Practitioners need to learn how to support this to extend the boys (and girls) learning within this. - So many things can be done in a positive light.  Children will be picking up on violence on TV - I loathe the simpsons which some parents allow their children to watch - but its how adults then discuss/explore with the children the good and the bad things about what they are watching and doing.

If I now think about my childhood - I sat with my Grandfather watching Tom and Gerry - now as an adult analysing that you could be horrified at what Tom put Gerry through! - but somehow through supportive adults I turned out non-violent.

Food for thought!

This is through practitioners not able to understand the learning opportunities superhero play can have on the boys both indoors and outdoors. 

by: Karine

OOPS last paragraph should have been deleted!!

by: Maestro

I enjoy doing these activities with the kids, especially in the summer, rough and tumble on the grass, army rolling, creating an ambush, chasing each other, making as much noise as possible.

It's a good way to let off steam, take risks, keep active, develop fine motor, gross motor, communication, cognitive, story telling skills etc... Fits the EYFS perfect now, following children's interests to develop their learning.

It's all good fun, too much emphasis is put on the aggression that is automatically associated with guns, fantasy play etc... I have handled guns as a sport as an adult, played with toy guns, bows and arrows, toy knives etc as a child, and have not turned out as a killer, wanting to play gang warfare, carry weapons etc... If there is a responsible adult is present who can support their learning then I do not see a problem.

Children are exposed to everything in the world through the media and perhaps on their doorstep. They are still learning right and wrong all the way through to adulthood, and I do believe it does not properly develop until about 18-19 ears of age. The way in which they learn can be influenced from a young age.

Knife crime was on the increase (i'm not sure where it is now, probably still on the increase, although we are in a supposed recession, are they expensive...) should we ban knives from the dinner table incase a child decides to stab their follow friends? No because we have taught children there is a place for knives, and how we should use them. Now for anyone thinking they should take their AK47 in for show and tell and teach the children to handle it, this may not go down well, and you may need permission from the parents.

Super heroes? I think we all have a hero, and sometimes need a hero. Some have powers, guns, and some might just be your dad, mum, uncle, nan etc... Superheroes are usually the good guys defeating the bad guys, surely a positive image that could be built upon? Even when you watch the children play if one adopts the bad guy they will follow the story they have seen, usually ending in the defeat of the bad guy, so the child pretends to die, followed by "I'm dead now!" We all have a natural instinct to care and protect for someone, and although the children might not fully understand this concept it's there in their thoughts and play.

I agree the debate will never be settled but I am happy where I stand, and happy to acknowledge where others stand.

by: Mrs. A

Bob the builder i am a nursery manager! first of all i would never ask someone this sort of question in an interview, as it has been shown here is obviously a very personal oppinion and each persons views on this should be respected. I would not activly encourage children to play with guns and nor would i force any of my staff to partake in this type of role play if they didn't feel comfortable doing so. You are right when you say we should be role models to the child we care for part of which is showing acceptance and understanding (e.g. not making children feel guilty for simply playing) as well as showing children that certain activites and games will have boundries and that their acts might effect other. We also have a responsibilty to prepare children for the real world can not and should not shelter them for ever, they will see guns in the media so why pretend that we don't? Isn't it better to teach them about it and how to be responsible rather than to ignore the situation? 

by: Karine

Well said Maestro and MissA

by: Mickey

good points millie, I have to agree with all you say ..... I find maestro's comments interesting to , Can't argue with what you say, Can i add , yes it would be better to teach children about gun's. Doesn't mean they are going to grow up as a terrorist.I'm sure this wouldn't pop in a interview, i was just playing devils advocate. Still a touchy subject to tackle, Is there a defining answer to this, I guess not really

by: iggyfishtank

To be honest you have to have some opportunities to use gun/superhero play. Some children will have parents in the armed forces so telling them that guns are bad will confuse them and isnt fair. Also we celebrate the end of War and will constantly hold up people who have fought for this country (rightly)for the freedoms we hold today as heroes. The society live in acknowledges the uses of guns for a purpose and the children have to live in this society and will pick up its norms.

We cannot have it both ways.  E

by: lilynolife

Hi Miss A,

When finishing my MA I looked at 'war play' for my dissertation, the books I referred to are listed below.  I believe children should be afforded opportunities to participate in war play, it helps them to make sense of the world and stimulates their imagination.... that doesn't mean practitioners don't need to be observant in order to ensure the play is purposeful and supported to enable children to use their own experiences to influence their play.  Good luck with the assignment.

Adams, S. & Moyles, J. (2005) Images of Violence: Responding to children’s representations of the violence they see., Featherstone Education, Lutterworth.

Carlsson-Paige, N & Levin, D.E (1990) Who’s Calling The Shots? How to Respond Effectively to Children’s Fascination with War Play and War Toys and Violent TV. Philadelphia,  NEW SOCIETY PUBLISHERS.

Department for Children, Schools and Families (2007) Confident, capable and creative: supporting boys’ achievements. Guidance for practitioners in the Early Years Foundation Stage.  DCFS Publications.

Dodd, A., Dollins, R., Snyder, T & Welch, H. (1992) War and Peace: Toys, Teachers & Tots. Dept of Family & Child Development, VIRGINIA POLYTECHNIC INSTITUTE & STATE UNIVERSITY (paper presented at the annual conference of the Southern Association on Children under 6)

Hoffman, E. (2004) Magic Capes, Amazing Powers.  Transforming Superhero Play in the Classroom. Redleaf Press, Minnesota.

Holland, P (2003) We don’t play with guns here; War, weapon and superhero play in the early years. Maidenhead, OPEN UNIVERSITY PRESS.

Hyder, T (2005) War, Conflict and Play, MPG Books Ltd,  OPEN UNIVERSITY PRESS

Kalliala, M. (2006) Play Culture in a Changing World, Open University Press, Maidenhead.

Levin, D. E and Carlsson-Paige (2004) The War Play Dilemma  What Every Parent and Teacher Needs to Know (second edition), USA, TEACHERS AT COLLEGE PRESS

Sutton-Smith, B. (February1988) War toys and childhood aggression. Play and Culture. 1.1, p57 – 69 in Smith, P., Cowie, H and Blades, M (2003) Understanding Children’s Development (4^th Edition),  Blackwell Publishing.

Turley, J. (2007) My Boys Like Shootouts.  Whats Wrong With That? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/23/AR2007022301749.html  (retrieved 23 June 2008)

Turner, C.W. and Goldsmith, D. (1976) Effects of toy guns and airplanes on children’s antisocial free play behaviour, Journal of Experimental child Psychology, 21:303 – 15.

by: Karine

Hi Annette

Do you have any easy links that would direct me to a questionaire type format that would analyse what both parents and practititioners thoughts are about superhero play? - I have looked on the net and nothing comes up really.

Basically I want to design a questionnaire that is thought provoking - basically tackling practitioners who currently do not allow superhero play in their settings.

Can you help? 

Thanks

by: mickey

How can Role Play with Gun's Be helpfull, We can all publish a book, does'nt mean what's inside is correct. Hey why not teach Children to go shop lifting, Of course you would'nt, So why Teach them to play with Gun's. Question , What are gun's in the real world used for. So why Teach it. Bang, Bang your Dead, Starnge thing to be Teaching to any child....Unless you live in the US, Where guns are totally wicked, Thats why so many schools have  been hit by idiots, shooting people in these schools. I give up. Hey, How about, teaching children to play with Knifes, NO we would'nt, What is wrong with people....

You Read and be lead by books, god help the kids you Teach,

by: Tunja

Are you a 'snowdrop' Micky?

Properly taught about guns create a disciplined mind. They can teach thoughtfulness, mathematics, reasoning, time and space, relaxation, basic mechanics, physics and engineering and provide a worthwhile hobby.

Children who have been properly instructed are those most unlikely to use a weapon of any kind in anger. Children from 12 are those best able to use a gun, but safety training such as not pointing a gun at people and range safety etiquette can begin from 2 years of age. 

by: Curly

There is a difference between superhero play, war play and playing with guns.

Many children around the world live in war zones and live their lives in fear of real guns and there is little play in their lives. Their lives are not fun. Allowing children to 'play guns' is disrespectful and makes light of the plight of those children who dream of a world without them. You can read all the books written about this subject but they never really deal with the moral issues.

Yes, children maybe fascinated by guns but they are also fascinated about sex and we don't allow them to 'make out' in the Wendy house do we?

by: kaz (the first one!)

I have known quite a few children in my time that have had dad's and uncles mostly that are in the armed forces. I have always been very careful about the messages I put across to these children - not to belittle the 'family hero' who happens to carry a gun as part of their job.

I'm not pro-gun at all but I know they have their place. My 16yr old daughter fires guns regularly as part of her army cadet training.  

by: Curly

Also, what if a refugee child joined a setting who had fled their country because of war? How traumatised could they feel if other children started playing guns?

by: mickey

Can i point out, I was only pointing out that GUN'S in any setting As no place, Please come on people, We all know i chat rubbish, YES I DO, But please, teaching Guns to children, Please, What are guns, What do they do, How can that be fun, NO, NO it is'nt fun, OK lets go all out here, If you think guns are cool, lets teach children about abortion, NO you would'nt, So why Teach about guns, like i said read all the books you want, Does it make it right (NO)

They are'nt young for that long, Lets keep and protect them from rubbish like guns, please dont get me wrong, But Come on, Guns, WWhat the heck is the point, teaching guns to children, As for books the people that writ them should be Ashamed of themselves....

I can not understand what some people here are saying about guns, Guns Throughout the decades from the 1st world War, What have they done, You got it, They have killed Billions of people, They still kill people today, So how can you be happy teaching children this....

by: Tunja

Its called perspective Micky.

In this country more children are injured by TV's and computers than guns. 

RE: RE: superhero and gun play - 10-06-09 17:11

by: curly

In this country more children are injured by TV's and computers than guns. 

This made me laugh Tunja. I had images of TV's roaming the streets injuring children lol. Seriously though, I was referring to the moral issue of gun play which would be relevant even if a gun had never hurt a child in the UK.

by: kaz (the first one!)

and no we wouldn't teach children about abortion but then again you can't buy abortion kits in the local post office - you can buy toy guns!

Two children brought guns in today. I allowed them to and spoke to the whole group about using guns to shoot at targets and not people or animals (apparently dinosaurs are ok, says one of the children). 

I think guns play an important part of teaching children to keep safe. Ban them completely and they become objects of desire.

Guns don't kill people, people do.

by: mickey

I Hear what you are saying, Look im big enough to say what i say, I'm certainly big enough to have the flack.

i still think guns and teaching children about them in my eyes, Is wrong, But hey if was all the same, It would be a dull world, I'm off now to claim something on Expenses,. may be a new plasma 62 inch sounds good......

by: curly

and no we wouldn't teach children about abortion but then again you can't buy abortion kits in the local post office - you can buy toy guns!

Just because toy guns are sold in the post office does that make it ok?? They sell toy cigarettes in the sweet shop - would it be ok for children to bring those to nursery?

I do agree with Kaz that teaching children about guns is important though. Unfortunately there are lots of things that maybe objects of desire to children - alcohol, smoking, etc - but as adults we are responsible for guiding children's thinking on these matters.

by: mickey

i know you would'nt Teach about abortion, I was try to like things to gun's, But hey at the end of the day If you think Teaching guns to children is ok, Go for it. If i was working , Which i'm not, But if i was asked to teach guns to children, In the words of the Dragons Den (I'M OUT)

by: Karine

Hi everyone

As you know I am now near to completion doing my dissertation on this very subject - its been great hearing all your comments.

Would anyone mind if this was printed out and added to my disertation as research.  I am asking just in case their are ethical issues hear - copyright or people have submitted their real names etc., -

Annette may want to update me on this too.

by: Karine

Hi

I go with my origional post still.  I just am concerned that if children do have parents that work within the armed forces - and if practitioners suddenly jump in, tell the child off for carrying out their individual interest - that they will personally have their own emotional well being and self-esteem threatened.

I have witnessed so many times in settings boys being stopped from using lego bricks and sticks during their play - they are then told to go off and do something else, drawing writing - you can see the confusion in their eyes, why whats wrong - natural questions that we would ask if we were told to stop doing what we are interested in. 

Practitioners to not seem to take the time to get down to the child's level and gently guide and involve themselves with the boys during this type of play.  Instead of exploring the meaning behind why the children are representing equipment in this way and talking to them about the effects weapons may have to kill - or indeed to protect, for example our armed forces, they have a knee jerk reaction which inhibits the child's curiosity, focus, learning and development.

Also superhero play does not have to be negative - for example the characters from Lazy Town, Sportacas and Stephanie they are fantastic superheroes - but again few practitioners seem to want to promote even this form of superhero play.

I know only of a few settings that may do so and the transformation in the boys learning and understanding is supreme to non.  Their interests have been engaged and their emotional well-being, learning and development are certainly enhanced as a result.

The one thing this dissertation has enabled me to do is to make up my own mind, by watching practitioners virtually disable a boys (sometimes girls) natural curiosity and desire to re-enact what they have seen within their role play they have destroyed that child's focus and ability for the rest of the session to enjoy their learning.

Its the way we gently speak to the children or play alongside  engaging in this type of play that will ensure that they understand the consequences of certain actions.  Play can be positively re-directed - but along the same themes and lines of their interests.  Its whether the practitioners understand fully how to do this - or even if they can be bothered.  Sometimes I think practitioners simply hide behind their policy on zero tolerance as they are afraid to take on board parents and other practitioners - or think innovitively on how it can be supported.

by: dj.in.brighton

"I played with toy guns and it never did me any harm"

In my case its probably true.My dad wasn't keen on war toys.He went on anti-war protests while I was running around the park pretending to kill my younger brother.

35 years on and I'm helping organise anti-war marches in Brighton!

But for the last 20 years I've thought there was something seriously wrong with the "we don't play with guns at nursery" approach.

Why?

Because it is the only imaginative play that we ban.Yet it is imaginative.If children feel the need to play pretend violence,what is the effect on them of being told their imagination is wrong?That "boys play" is not as good as girls?That there's something naughty about that child?

I hate violence as much as anyone.Yet I've certainly IMAGINED violent acts against assorted Prime Ministers,or thought "I could kill him",when I clearly couldn't.

I think the important thing is to help children learn the difference between fantasy and reality.I've seen plenty of boys playfight where it's obvious to me that they're not really trying to hurt each other.But I've stepped in when I've recognised that they're just about to cross the line into genuine anger.(This was when I worked with 8-12 year olds)

With under 5s,its more disturbing to adults of course.And sad.As I write,my 4 year old boy did his first ever gun play today - shooting lions in our flat!(It was his 6 year old brother's idea).I didn't challenge him,and however much I don't like it,I'm pleased he got to 4 1/2 without shooting anything.

At my nursery,one thing I do to challenge gun play is to accept it but try to turn the game around.So if I get "shot",I can't play anymore because I'm "poorly".Someone will have to get a doctor.I'm made better.Or perhaps I just can't play anymore.Sometimes it can turn into a game of hospitals.

Alternatively,if you get shot by a toy gun/zapper/finger,give the wrong reaction - hysterics/shaking your head/jumping/clapping etc.I think that part of the attraction of gun play is making-something-happen to someone by pointing.I may be trying to undermine a "killing" game,but the children may prefer this.

One 7 year old friend always liked me to play with his toy soldiers.He just had to accept that tears on the battlefield,telegrams to grieving families,and the occaisional mutiny against bloodthirsty officers were part of my game.But he still wanted to play.

I think one of our main fears about gun play and superheroes is that we'll have lots of uncontrolled,noisy,running around.

I think we need to create other opportunities for such uncontrolled,noisy running around,which doesn't have to involve superheroes or guns.But finding the space and time is hard.

By the way,if you haven't guessed,I'm male.Don't know if that makes any difference. 

by: curly

I may have misread the import of your post Millie but you seem to suggest that all practitioners that disagree with children playing guns automatically rush in and stop them without any explanation. Yes practitioners need to deal sensitively with children's interest in guns just like they should with any other controversial issues. Just because some practitioners may stop this play insensitively doesn't mean it is wrong to intervene.

by: mickey

Rhys Jones, pops to mind, Who shot this young little man? youths playing , The Big i am, say no more....I live a few miles from a place Called Handsworth, Over the last few weeks on TV. Shootings in the street.

i think you get my point, Teaching Gun's to children in MY eys is wrong, 100% To add to this, How many kids in buggies do you see walking round shops, With toy guns, They do the actions as though they are shooting you... Go help our future generation.

Of course i'm not saying children that are taught about guns will grow up and do a Hungerford. My point is however, And it's simple even for me, Why teach gun's to children, I tell you waht, Ask your parents, If they say, it's ok, Then go for it, After you have phoned Social Services (Joke) Mind you Birmingham Sandwell SS are a complete waste of time and space, I would have more time for Ofsted, And thats saying something.

That's it i blame Julie, For starting this Post, Only joking Julie.

if you wish to teach Guns to Children, remember this, They are Children, I say it again ''They are only Children''

by: Rose

This is a fascinating topic. I am absolutley on the side of 'let them play'.

The only research I ever found on the internet about gun play in children was a study from America which said children who DIDNT engage in this type of play were MORE likely to use violence in later life.(sorry I havent got a link to it) 

I have never seen research that upholds the decision by lots of nurseries to ban this play and yet it is stopped in its tracks by most settings I've been in.

On the whole, girls can play whatever they like but boys have their play stopped. Its not very inclusive is it?

by: mickey

I think Rose, Your Following me, OK let me point this out..

Look back on these forums, Nurseries, Some of them Ban the use of Toilet Roll Tube Play, WHAT but guns are ok, HELLoooo

Thats it the world as gone mad.  And by the way Toilet Tube play, is fine, as i mailed Velvet one of the biggest toilet roll makers in the UK, They said it's fine, But still some owners said We still aint using them, But Gun play is fine, Thats it we can't play with Cardboard, But guns , Thats fine, Pleaseeeeee someone help.

To quote The maisonettes It's a Heartache Avenue By the way what a good retro tune, Rose thanks for your word though, Take care of you

by: curly

What does everyone think about wrestling at nursery? Boys seem to be more and more interested in this at my setting.

by: mickey

How about Teaching Children How Great the Music was in the 80's Last night a DJ saved my ofsted.

99 Red Ofsted Inspectors

never can say goodbye / To a ofsted inspector

Pointer Sister / Jump (ofsted's greatest Tune)

I ve lost the plot,

by: Karine

Hi Curly

No I think I was tired when I wrote that post!! - I am not saying all practitioners rush in - but as an assessor and frequent visitor to many a setting I have actually witnessed the majority of play being stopped.  I can't fiddle with those findings.  When I asked why play had been stopeed it usually was based on the practitioner thinking the boys were making too much noise, someone could hurt another child through certain types of play, such as rough and tumble/superhero.   Also the policies of the setting clearly state that certain type of play is not acceptable - and this is usually based around the term 'Zero Tolereance' to gun play, superhero play etc.,

I certainly think if someone is being too rough then by all means practitioners should step in - but its how they intervene that is the key.  As I have said in previous posts - getting down sometimes and supporting the play with boys often aids their understanding of where their characters are going, if the characters are their to harm or protect - and the practitioner finds out these characteristics, then certain play that may hurt or humiliate can be addressed.

What I note in some settings is a flat out-right NO! - without any explanation, guidance or redirection of the activity in anyway.

My studies and observations have been very interesting

by: curly

Yes I understand exactly what you are saying about zero tolerance. If you came to my setting you would find zero tolerance and my colleagues have even reported me to the Head for allowing rough play. (The children were throwing themselves down onto the soft-surface to practice wrestling falls).

The other day some boys didn't want to tidy up so I suggested they pretend to be Sonic the Hedgehog - and they finished within two minutes. At the end they cheered loudly and ran on the spot - much to the disapproval of the T/A who rang a bell and told them off.

So I'm not adverse to superhero play, and in my setting, I think you could even say, I champion it - it's the gun play I think is inappropriate on the basis of moral principles and the fact London is becoming a nortorious hotspot for gun crime.

by: mickey

Sonic, Now there's a game, I still never got the beating of this game, but Sonic is cool

by: Karine

I do understand Curly

But what about the children who come from army backgrounds?

What about the people who are with the armed forces? - How do you teach our children about history, world war 2 comes to mind, many a time I sat on my grandfathers knee and my fathers listening to many a story.  I watched as my siblings picked up sticks and played with them whilst running, hiding and tumbling behind the tree stumps.  - They have not turned out as bad people wanting to pick up guns to kill. -

What would happen to this country if it were attacked (just humour me) who would you look to protect it? - Our army?

Some children's parents have lived and died for this country - these are true superheroes - many a young scout, brownie, cub has celebrated these events during rememberence sunday and have stood proudly beside that grandparent.  Because this represented war and guns - does this mean it should not be celebrated and the children updated about the events?

With an uncle who lived and worked as a seargent in Aldershot I grew up around guns, uniform and army - I pretend fought and played - but had the experience of good people to explain the outcomes of real war, violence.  Funny I do not ever want to kill or maim anyone as a youngster or adult for that matter, and many a person who experienced this play are the same.

It is only a few that have the mindset, background and mentality which we have all based our assumptions on and ensure that no one should access this type of play.

Again its simply the culture into which we are born that may determine the person you become.

by: curly

I'm not sure I can see how remembering the dead and teaching children war history has to be accompanied with letting them play guns. You don't have to touch fire to know that it's hot. I would have thought that those from army backgrounds would be in a very good position to understand the emotional and physical damage caused by the effects of war and would want children to learn to respect that war is not a game.

Yes guns are used for a variety of purposes in adult life but where I live in London young children are regularly being killed by each other using guns and knives. How can we teach children that gun crime is wrong if we let them play it? As I've mentioned before, parents have sex but we don't let children play sex in our settings. Why do think that is?

by: mickey

Curly, I like you Fire comment a good one.

I would'nt like to comment on the sex comment, I get in enough trouble in these forums, But i understand what your saying

I'm sure gun's have a place, In the Battlefield, and not on the streets of the UK, Toy shops should stop selling them,Children should not pretend with them.

Ask families that have lost a child to a gun, I bet that would love children to be tought gun play, I DON'T THINK SO

by: mickey

i mailed Ofsted over the weekend to get their poistions on Gun Play, Just had a mail back, saying.

We have past your querry on to the right person, In time they will rspond. Ummmm Lets see

by: curly

I can understand Millie's position. How would a small child feel if they were told at Nursery guns are wrong and yet their parent uses them in their job? This is where being a sensitive practitioner comes into play. Just saying 'you can't do that here' is not enough. It must be backed up with a reasoned explanation.

by: kaz (the first one!)

definately. It is in children's nature to play with guns, just like I played cowboys and indians when I was little. You cannot stop it. By telling children they cannot make guns from lego is making them liars - 'hey Johnny, you making a gun?' No, I'm just playing...' Don't teach children to lie!

My son used to make guns from his toast behind my back!

by: Karine

Hi Guys

Just out of interest (and to look at within my dissertation) how do you support boys intersts in boisterous/Superhero play? 

Do you sit alongside them and join in with their play (superhero or boisterous)

What type of play do your boy's exhibit within the setting

 Do you have a zero tolerance to any boisterous or superhero play and therefore it is stopped?

It its stopped dead what do you aks the boys to do?

by: Rose

I find myslef joining in (where and when its allowed). I often 'shoot' my 16 year old with my fingers. We've done it ever since he was little, its a game. He has always known that, like I knew when I was little, (actually not so little, I remember a lovely summer when I was 14, building dens out of hay bales and useing sticks to shoot the enemy) My son uses Matrix movements to avoid and dodge. After Lord of the Rings I would stand with arms raised ready to loose my arrows at him.

Its harder in nurseries, so many rules surrounding boistrous play and superhero play and shooting. I will roll around the floor and hide behind tables and join in with the excited shouting. But I know when to call a halt, Bens not happy, we wont shoot Ben anymore, or shooting isnt allowed in the home corner, dinners being served. I'll draw it away fro the areas and children for whom it isnt appropriate. After the game, which the boys usually end not me, they will completly change tack. Sitting at the dough table, lying on the floor with the trains, building with the bricks. Its a game, they know that. They use it as part of their normal routine. Self register, build a castle, shoot someone, paint a picture, have snack, ride a bike, sing a song, go home.

The only intolerence I have is towards people who stop the play saying its dangerous, but cant back it up with published research.

by: curly

Just out of interest would you allow children to playing shooting games on the computer at your setting?

by: Rose

Not in setting a the moment but I dont see why not. I've seen the ones where the child has to use the arrows to move a water gun to shoot the ducks, or shoot rockets into clouds or whatever it was, so yes, probably.

But, I dont much like computer games for young children anyway, they always seem so predictive and prescribed and the ones with a colouring in page to print out do nothing for me at all! Some games/programmes seem to be a substitute television, with some children prefering to sit staring at the screen while another child clicks on things, almost like watching a DVD.

I dont think there is much in a computer game that cant be learnt through real play (except IT naturally lol), not in that age group anyway.

by: mickey

Call me sad If you go to the EA games web site, I have been playing this for three days, I can't stop playing this, have a go it's Connect four wih a twist.

How about a Flight Sim, Take a look i bet most adults could'nt master these, they are so life like. Yea im being a bit silly with that one. But there are so many games on the net, that i guess encourage shooting, But thats a game, is it like holding a play gun, No

by: Karine

Did any of you play tin can alley when you were a kid?  Did any of you hold a water pistol, spud gun?

I did - and I certainly knew when to stop, still do - I have just had a few husband and wife teams answer my questionnaires and the results were that the husbands did not feel gun play or superhero play a theat - yet the female did and felt uncomfortable about it.

We have a lot of gender implications here with regards play.

Also we seem to keep on going back to guns all the time. 

How about general superhero play - like the characters from Lazy town, spider man with his web - are these allowed in the setting and the role play areas designed to accomodate this type of interest for boys (and girls)?

Also what about other superhero's like our police officers, firefighters etc.,  I know that one little lad when questioned about superhero said it was his father - who was a police officer, because he arrests baddies - how do you engage children in this play or follow the children's interests - as no doubt they will be running around making arrests etc., (and yes when they go to spain for example - the police wear guns and the kiddies are very perceptive - they do notice them!)

by: mickey

Don't like spiders, Police , Super Hero's ummm NO

To be fair The Police at air-ports have semi automatic gun's They are there and on show Purely because of the times we find ourselves in,

I still would say, Teaching gun play to Nursery Children, I would'nt do it or be involved with it. But i guess every one will have different views on this. Not for me though

by: mickey

My Super Hero was  Jamie and the magic tourch, I'm not sure about the tourch though, They can be used as weapons, the tourch i have is huge. Hey how about Andy Pandy, Now there's a ted if ever i saw one.

by: curly

We keep going back to guns because we seem to generally accept Superhero play is ok but the jury is out about the guns.

'I certainly knew when to stop, still do' - Unfortunately some don't and these are the ones to worry about. One child comes to mind. The child spent a lot of time at home playing violent games and even has his own boxing ring. His male parent saw nothing wrong in this. However he came to setting re-enacting his games and was daily injuring other children (serious injuries that children were having to be sent home for). This went on for two years, until pressure from the setting got the parent to stop the violent play at home. Stopping the agressive play has definately made a difference but it's like weaning a drug addict. Research shows violence breeds violence.

As regards police - I dressed up as a policewoman last year for our dressing up day and the kids loved the handcuffs - I didn't need a gun.

Children may see their parents as superheros but would you allow them to pretend to smoke in the setting with a pencil?

by: Chey

Hello this is a fascinating subject.

Take a look at the following:

Nutbrown, C.& Clough, P. & Selbie, P.(2008) Early Childhood Education, History,Philosophy and Experience London Sage

pages 124-125 (the whole chapter is excellent p, 120 onwards)

Literacy in the early years: a pedagogy of patience?

An imagined conversation where Rudolph Steiner (RS) talks with Cathy Nutbrown (CN).

RS: 'That is not uncommon in Steiner classrooms, but you will often find that the story comes at the start of the day. Steiner-Waldorf teachers must be good story-tellers and good illustrators! But I must make a point here about the stories told to young children-we must not just tell them any story.Different kinds of stories are fitting for different ages of children according to their needs of body, soul and spirit.This is important-not until the age of nine do children see themselves as separate from their environment. For this reason, everything around little children should be spoken of as if it too were human. Plants, animals, stones should be spoken of as if they too can speak, love, hate. Anthropomorphism should be used in the most inventive ways. (52) Treat all things that feel and live as if they were human, and allow trees and stones, sun and rain and wind to talk-everything you bring to a child of this age is like a fairytale'.

52 Steiner, The Kingdom of Childhood, p.31.

Exploring this text may help you to have some insights into this area and why Super Heroes are so appealing for young children.

Good luck with your investigation

Kind regards

by: mickey

Once upon a time there were Three bear Sheeps, these Bear Sheep, Came from the canadian Welsh Mountains, Anyway, One day, The Bear sheeps decided, they had enough of living with mommy and Daddy Bear Shhep, So they took off, for pasters new. They were walking for so long, They decided to rest up by a lusg green field. As they were resting, they did'nt notice red Riding hood, Running past, She was running from the big bad tax man, Anyway the Big bad Tax man noticed the Three Bear Sheeps, and though i'll have them lot for lunch and claim it on MP's expenses.... Anyway the point is, Any one can make up stories. though some off them aint for children's ears, As you see the thrre Bear Sheeps were chopped up for tesco's cheap and nasty range of food.

ok back to some serious stuff ... Some Nursery Rhymes are full of nasty stuff, we teach them still though, Look i;m not going to win the war or the battle with this one, I don't think gun play is right, But may be thats why i'm out of work so don't listen to me, what do i know. ladies and gentlemen of the jury , I rest my bones.. Thanks you

water and spund gun's however have never killed anyone, The real deal does and does reck lifes, Ok kids being kids, they will role play what they see, so were do they see Bang, bang your dead from, Would it be the TV or the parents, god bles em.

Some super hero dudes are cool, Look at banana man or top cat. Hey Bagpuss was cool, Lazy but cooooool

by: curly

Research is an interpretation of data influenced by the researchers' values and beliefs. Research is regularly challenged and disproved - look at old Piaget. A competent professional should not blindly follow research without critically balancing the needs of the children in their unique setting and the views of the parents.

The fact that we have some very different viewpoints on the issue could suggest there is no right answer - the only right answer maybe the one that is agreed upon within a setting and based on the settings' values and beliefs in partnership with parents.

by: Karine

Hi

Mickey you simply crack me up and make me smile - even with a tuff subject like this one!

Chey, I love Steiner and Steinder Philosophy - but they do not allow children to watch TV, use ICT etc., Children under the age of 9 do grow up with a lovely view of  life - nothing to fear in the world apart from talking plants (now theres a tale) - They are not allowed to use any dark colours - pastels are only permitted they are quite sheltered within their kindergarten years both at home and at kindergarten as parents often follow the strict philosophy. - Protecting children within a rose garden without thorns may not protect them against real life as they get older.

What am I trying to say here?- Practitioners need to look at the way they engage boys play and tap into their interests without making them feel bad - even if they do not agree with the play.   What I do agree with in relation to Steiner is that children need gentle explanations of what is happening in the world around them when they query them - life can not be pushed under the carpet all the time.  Children are exposed through media and their souroundings and environment to good and bad - but its how we channel their understanding that is paramount.

AHHH Grasshopper do you understand (as a little girl said as she squashed it under her feet - then replied when asked why she had hurt it... I wanted to see what it looked like dead cause nobody showed me, will it wake up now?)

by: Karine

Hi

Mickey you simply crack me up and make me smile - even with a tuff subject like this one!

Chey, I love Steiner and Steinder Philosophy - but they do not allow children to watch TV, use ICT etc., Children under the age of 9 do grow up with a lovely view of  life - nothing to fear in the world apart from talking plants (now theres a tale) - They are not allowed to use any dark colours - pastels are only permitted they are quite sheltered within their kindergarten years both at home and at kindergarten as parents often follow the strict philosophy. - Protecting children within a rose garden without thorns may not protect them against real life as they get older.

What am I trying to say here?- Practitioners need to look at the way they engage boys play and tap into their interests without making them feel bad - even if they do not agree with the play.   What I do agree with in relation to Steiner is that children need gentle explanations of what is happening in the world around them when they query them - life can not be pushed under the carpet all the time.  Children are exposed through media and their souroundings and environment to good and bad - but its how we channel their understanding that is paramount.

AHHH Grasshopper do you understand (as a little girl said as she squashed it under her feet - then replied when asked why she had hurt it... I wanted to see what it looked like dead cause nobody showed me, will it wake up now?)

by: mickey

HEY I CRACK A LOT OF PEOPLE UP, My spirit guide told me, Mick, he said your Job on earth is to make to laugh and get angry at you, So i'm doing a dam good job. Grasshopper once said, person that makes jokes of a serious point, is pointless or something like that anyway, grasshopper onece said, never play in grass, After dog as been on grass....

I blame Gordon Brown for everything, Even Ofsted, I better go now, as grasshopper once say, mick, Talking, No point

by: Tunja

I sometimes despair at adults trying to restrict such play. did you never play cowboys and Indians. I used to shoot guns, fire arrows make bombs and lasso others. I think I am normal now but was I then?

This makes a good tongue in cheek read:

More  Children Being Diagnosed With Youthful Tendency Disorder

Day after day, upon arriving home from preschool, Caitlin would retreat into a bizarre fantasy world. Sometimes, she would pretend to be people and things she was not. Other times, without warning, she would burst into nonsensical song. Some days she would run directionless through the garden of their comfortable  home, laughing and shrieking as she chased imaginary objects.

When months of sessions with a local psychologist failed to yield an answer, Nicholas and Beverly took Caitlin to a prominent pediatric neurologist for more exhaustive testing. Finally, on March 11, they received the heartbreaking news: Caitlin was among a growing legion of  children suffering from Youthful Tendency Disorder.

"As horrible as the diagnosis was, it was a relief to finally know," said Beverly. "At least we knew we weren't bad parents. We simply had a child who was born with a medical disorder."

Youthful Tendency Disorder (YTD), a poorly understood neurological condition that afflicts an estimated 20,000 U.K. children, is characterized by a variety of senseless, unproductive physical and mental exercises, often lasting hours at a time. In the thrall of YTD, sufferers run, jump, climb, twirl, shout, dance, do cartwheels, and enter unreal, unexplainable states of "make-believe."

"The Youthful child has a kind of love/hate relationship with reality," said Johns Hopkins University YTD expert Dr. Avi Gwertzman. "Unfit to join the adult world, they struggle to learn its  rules in a process that can take the entirety of their childhood. In the meantime, their emotional and perceptive problems cause them to act out in unpredictable and extremely juvenile ways. It's as though they can only take so much reality; they have to 'check out,' to go Youthful for a while."

On a beautiful Springday in Bedfordshire,  six-year-old Cameron  is swinging on a park swing–a monotonous, back-and-forth action that apparently gives him solace. Spotting his mother on a nearby bench, Cameron rushes eagerly to her and asks, "Guess what?" His mother responds with a friendly, "What?" With unbridled glee, Cameron shouts, "Chicken butt!"--cryptic words understood only by him--before laughing and dashing off again, leaving his mother distraught over yet another baffling non-conversation.

"I must admit, it's been a struggle,"  mum said. "What can I say to him when he says something like that, something that makes no sense? Or when he runs through the house yelling while I'm trying to balance the checkbook? You can't just say, 'Please, Cameron, don't have a disorder for just a few minutes so I can concentrate."

Cameron's psychological problems run even deeper. He can name every one of his beloved, imaginary Sponge Bob characters, but the plain realities of the actual world he inhabits are an enigma: Ask Cameron the name of the real-life city councilman sponsoring the referendum to renovate the park just across the street from his house–a park he plays in daily–and he draws a blank.

According to Dr. Dinesh Agarwal, director of child psychiatry at NYU Medical Center, such disconnectedness from reality is a coping mechanism for YTD sufferers. "The Youthful child is born into a world he or she does not fully understand," Agarwal said. "Their brain pathways are still forming, and they need to repetitively relearn how to assimilate into society. These disassociative play-fantasies apparently help them accomplish that."

But such fantasies come at a price, producing in Youthful children a disinterest in the everyday responsibilities of life bordering on contempt.

"Jesse knows when it's his turn to empty the dishwasher. We've gone over the house rules a dozen times," said Richard Torres,  father of three whose nine-year-old son Jesse was recently diagnosed with YTD. "And still he neglects the job time and again."

Slowly, methodically, through an elaborate system of rewards and punishments, Jesse has shown improvement. But the road ahead is long.

"We get a lot of platitudes from the so-called experts," Torres said. "We hear a lot of, 'Oh, he'll grow out of it, just give it time.' That's easy for them to say–their kid's not running around the neighborhood claiming to be Superman."

Help for families struggling with YTD may soon be on the way. At last month's annual AMA Convention, Smithkline-Beecham unveiled Juvenol, a promising YTD drug which, pending FDA approval, could reach the U.K. market as early as next spring. Already available in France and Sweden, Juvenol, the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet reported, resulted in a 60 percent decrease in running and jumping among users.

But until such help arrives, the parents of YTD sufferers can do little more than try to get through each day.

"I love my child with all my heart," said Alexandra Torres, Jesse's mother. "But when he's in the throes of one of his skipping fits, it's hard not to feel a little envious of parents with normal, healthy children."

by: curly

I have Youthful Tendancy Disorder - it sometimes affects members of the older population who work with children when others start talking about Health and Safety.

by: Chey

Dear Tunja,

where did you find this piece it is utterly amazing? You are one incredibley talented human if you wrote it yourself, wow! Start writing mate, we need creative, imaginative, deep thinkers who are reflective and passionate like you.

kind regards

by: kaz (the first one!)

brilliant!

by: Karine

Oh wow

These poor kids and misguided adults - what are we doing to them?

by: Tunja

Confession I found it and rewrote some of it to suit. I have already written a book some times referred to as the childminders bible and write for a rival magazine.

by: kaz (the first one!)

You must be the same Tunja that was on my FD courses? I found your shared experiences very useful in my courses and understanding my local childminders.

by: Karine

Aha

You must be THE TUNJA STONE?

OK makes a lot of sense now - not that it did not before - what is the take on this subject for childminders then?

Do they take up the ethos of following boys interests which centres around the publication "Confident Capable boys" etc., In relation to superhero play.  Its just that during my research of both settings and childminders I am coming up against what Penny Holland called "Zero Tolerance".  Its a bit like the chicken and the egg situation.  You seemed damned if you do and damned if you dont.

My personal belief - as I have said many a time is that if children within my setting begin to play superhero or boisterous games I am happy for them to do so as I provide a safe enbvironment for them to experiment in both indoors and outdoors.  I see no need to stop completely unless someone becomes afraid, someone begins to get hurt - even then I dont stop, just re-direct and support.

My problem is that some settings I have been in wont even discuss the idea as it does not form part of their curriculum.  They will not even discuss with other staff members.  So I would like to know how they plan around individual children's interests because I know that some boys are obsessed with Sportacus - but equally power rangers - if this truly is what they want to play - why cant the role play areas reflect this - put on staff to support this play and gently be on hand if needs be.

Role play areas in some settings are dull and boring and seem to have the same continous theme - kitchen - Fire station - Restaurant - hardly stimulating stuff and after a while even the best motivated child gets bored with the same thing. - Also usually lends itself towards girls dominating the area.

How about some tips from you guys on how to introduce superhero play into the setting - any ideas, planning, terminology, buzz words etc.,

by: Tunja

Childminders may find it easier to go with the flow as there are less children. This form of play can be easily included as part of the curriculum. it particularly lends itself to knowledge and understanding, personal and social development, physical and creative development. It also allows the play to be child led. If you select props you are leading the direction and it will become 'teacher' led.

Having a continuous themed corner cramps children's imagination and creativity. It also can be very gender debilitating. Childminders rarely have a set corner either. the whole of my downstairs and garden provide settings as they choose. This week we have had a mountain in the lounge too. ( to me just a brown sheet). Last week it was a swamp full of monsters.

Reading stories with heroes will spark their imagination. Many folk tales contain heroes who rescue princesses and slay the monsters. Ensure the prop box is available and that the clothes are not all gender specific. Boys like sparkles too! Adding wrap round skirts and scarves means children can also devise their own costumes. 

by: curly

How about some tips from you guys on how to introduce superhero play into the setting

I expect interest in Superheros would be regional so asking the children what they like then using those ideas for provision should be the most effective. In my setting it is:

Spiderman  - give children a ball of string and make a spiders web on a fence or between two chairs or on a board. It would be fun to make a big one they can climb through but there's the risk of strangulation.

Sonic The Hedgehog - races. Jumping games. collecting/finding rings or hoop-la.

Supermario - anything really - just mention his name and you won't be able to stop them talking. And don't forget Princess Peach for the girls.

by: Karine

Hi Tunja

Could not agree more.

I have just read an Early Years Magazine and within it was a section from a Montessori teacher - who believes that the Montessori way is to lead the play. The theory is that adults act a s aguide rather than a teacher and decides what materials will be available based on their observation of the children - but heres the funny bit - he then demonstrates what should be done with the materials and what the outcome can be if achieved correctly.

Some of the replies I have received back from a questionnaire really concern me as adequate provision does not seem to be being provided for children to explore role play through different measures - such as what you have mentioned Tunja.

Boys role play seems to be very much stifled and controlled and not representative of their interests.  The questionnaires Ihave received back from parents clearly show that the boys love spiderman, Sportacus, batman and power rangers. - Yet play along these lines are not apparent in the settings.

Montessori settings flatly refuse to entertain this play - yet they then go on to say that they build play around boys interests - but how can they if they ban this play outright?

From the research I have done I am interested to find out further if Ofsted pick up on this lack of provision for boys to include the Early Years teams that audit the settings?

Anyone? - How is planning put in place for boys - we all know they learn differently, they have different needs in the provision department to ensure their learning and development is met, yet their seems to be a huge gap in what settings are providing for them as their seems to be still a very set old fashioned curriculum in place across the board.

by: mickey

I said in one of my posts. I mailed Ofsted about Gun play. so wait for it here is the responce....

Thank you for your enquiry about gun play in nursery settings. Ofsted does not advocate gun play in settings and was not responsible for the item on the Nursery World website.

The website item related to a publication on boys’ achievements produced by the Primary National Strategies. This guidance does not suggest teaching gun play to boys. Its purpose is to explain to providers the importance of valuing the play of boys to ensure they are fully engaged and supported to develop positive attitudes to learning. The guidance acknowledges that adults can find the type of play some boys are interested in challenging and may have a natural instinct to stop it. However, research shows that valuing the contributions of boys can raise their sense of achievement and self esteem, and improve their attitudes and behaviour.  Its aim is to help practitioners look at their attitudes to boys’ play to help them understand why some boys need different ways to help them learn and make better progress.

by: curly

Thanks for this Mickey.

by: Karine

Hi all

Not so strange ofsted replied in this vein! - I think non of us have misinterpreted what Ofsted mean within the publication, but the debate was on how we supported boys interests, but people have such a strong view on guns it sort of overtakes the other issue on superhero play.  Not all superheroes use guns but yet again this has been jumped on and highlighted as the main focus with a re-sounding dont go there - so sorry boys if you are interested in this play then we will have to stop you dead in exploring your interests. -

 Practitioner 1

Now now Johnny put your lego bricks down you cant use them like that its not nice and its naughty, so make a nice shape out of the them, build a house or something says the practitioner

but why? says the boy because I say so says the practitioner its not PC - but why says the boy - because I say so, so run along and do something constructive in the writing corner - Yeah right says the boy who sits their not interested in what is now going on.

Practitioner 2

Hey Johnny what are you playing?  I am playing shooting with my gun, I am going to get all the baddies and lock them up.  Ahhh you have made a gun from the lego bricks, what a great shape you have made.  What have the baddies done that you need to use a gun? - They killed and hurt people they did so I am going to punish them.  Ahh says the practitioner, how do you think you may feel if someone came to you and stood there with a gun in front of you?  Frightened says the boy, yes I suppose you would, I know I would.  Do you think its right to use a gun and frighten even a baddie - ummm (he swings his body side to side as he contemplates this) ...No says the boy....so what would you do instead asks the practitioner.. Tell him its not nice to hurt people.....thats right says the practitioner.... the boy goes off to play, continues hesitantly with his lego gun, asking his group of freinds to continue playy.  They run around outside - but the play has changed just a little, the boy is more hesitant to point the gun ....

Later on in the week Johnny's parents take the key worker aside - have you been talking about guns and being nice?  Yes says the key worker Johnny built a really good shape from his lego, and it was in the shape of a gun - Oh says mum, he loves to play goodies and baddies at home.  Thats great says the practitioner.  Mum says...but do you know he told us that its not nice to use guns and hurt people.

I know which setting I would choose!

Ofsted are great at producing document after document - and dictating ideas, however when it comes to good practice rarely do they or other writers of such publications provide answers, and ways of actually supporting the practitioner to support the children - .  Read the case studies, all are very small and do not really amount to much and still leave practitioners wondering what they should really do.  To be PC or not to be PC that is the question - and to what extent

by: Karine

Sorry not just Ofsted publications - but DCSF etc., -

by: Tunja

Practitioner 2 is promoting lateral thinking and may just be creating tomorrows entrepreneur. Someone who can think outside the box and not yet another clone for the workforce.

by: mickey

i would actually say, We all have a superted (Whoops i mean superhero from our own childhood. Look at todays heros. if you can call them that....Sorry bring back 70/80's super heros.

What was wrong with Andy Pandy, Whoops not that i remember Andy Pandy. Phew...

I'm going to contradict myself here...Here goes....

Remember the Marvel Super Heros, Spiderman / The Hulk/Fantastic four, These were quite violent at times. So ummmm Hanna Montana, Now there's a Hero if ever i saw one, yes she's fit to....

As for Ofsted, I guess they would'nt come out and support anything a child may like, (Ouch)

To be PC or not. Ummmm Pass, The issue with gun's i guess, Is what they are used for, Which children do the actions of Bang, Bang your dead, I guess it's that i would'nt like, So people you are winning me round, keep up the good work

by: curly

but people have such a strong view on guns it sort of overtakes the other issue on superhero play.  Not all superheroes use guns but yet again this has been jumped on and highlighted as the main focus with a re-sounding dont go there -

Only because guns is something we haven't managed to agree on. I made the distinction early on between superheros and guns because by lumping it all together superhero play seems to become a 'no no' as well in the eyes of many practitioners and parents. We seem to agree that superhero play is positive and needs to be promoted more.

It's not about being PC - it's about having ethical and moral standards of what is appropriate for children. If a child made a willy out lego and started shaking it about because they had seen it on TV would you say that was ok? Why do you think it's different for killing people?

by: Karine

  Actually in all my years as a practitioner I have never seen a child particularly of pre-school age, as that is what we are mainly referring to here - use an object to mirror their personal appendages!!

If a child did that I still would not over react and say NO dont go there.  I would simply explain and acknowledge that most boys have a willy and that it is their private body part and that they should take care of it and not in front of others.  But I can bet your bottom dollar some practitioners will react horrified. 

Also its quite normal for children to have a keen interest in what belongs to them - namely their body parts. - It does not mean they have seen it on tv or been abused - again its how practioners react to each individual child and circumstance.

The whole issue here is that childrenn's interests are explored - guns and all.  Why?  Simply so that you can discuss and put them on the right tracks.  If you ignore something is it not often the case that it sparks a bigger interest and a need to find out more if you are told no you cant do something?  It is human nature to find out what is barred to us.  Rather than having supportive adults who can explain guide the child through discussion and exploration.  Children are not stupid - they know what is real life and what is not.

Read many a post from us older generations and you will find that we explored and played cowboys and indians, yet we have no desire to take a real gun and actually kill someone.

Why is it in a society that says it has freedom of expression and inclusive practice and building on children's individual needs are practitoners still unsure, unable or unbending because of their own personal fears inhibiting children's natural enquiring minds?

I agree its not about being PC, but practitioners infringing on a childs natural curiosity to question and explore meaning through play. - Do you seriously think all children will end up killing someone becasue they were allowed once or twice to pretend play in a setting.  - Generations of children have not. 

RE: RE: superhero and gun play - 25-06-09 10:36

by: curly

Actually in all my years as a practitioner I have never seen a child particularly of pre-school age, as that is what we are mainly referring to here - use an object to mirror their personal appendages!!

I have. But the point was that just because a child has an interest in something shouldn't automatically become a licence for 'that's ok then' - and so I used an extreme example to draw comparisions.

I very much agree that many settings stiffle children's interests in rough play/superheros and children need guidance not arbitory unexplained rules.

There has been a lot of research on the value and/or effects of rough play but there is no agreement because different studies have come to different conclusions. Therefore, as practitioners we have a responsibility to teach children the difference between right and wrong. For me personally 'shooting for the fun of it' is wrong and I would guide a child to think that way. Studies have shown that violence breeds violence which may not result in killing but what about bullying? Of course, others may think differently but that is fundermentally down to our differing values and beliefs, not personal fears. It doesn't make me wrong, just someone with a different perspective.

My own children (boys) have never been allowed to play guns or engage in play fighting. I don't know if that has contributed in them being some of the most popular children in the school or the most well-behaved and hard-working (according to the teachers) - but it does make me wonder....

by: Karine

On the other hand curly my children have played with guns, shot at each other with spud guns and water pistols played lazer games where the implication is that they are out because they have been zapped (Killed)- in real killing situations they would be dead but they do know the difference between real life and pretend, they know that guns and the weapons they use during replication of play are used in real situations and can kill, why because we have openly allowed this play, discussed and guided them to become well adjusted individuals who know right from wrong - ask them and they will tell you that people who use these weapons are ill, and not well adjusted people who have had trauma, lack of support and direction and exploration of ideas squashed as children.

 But my childrenn are extremely popular people and very well adjusted happy individuals and are happy to help they also stand proud as Scouts and Guides as they understand that many died because of such weaponary and therefore would not pick up a real gun to kill someone.  They have empathy with those who are bullied and those who are hurt by others.

My view is that if you hide something from children they will have an urge to find out more at a later date- what is the saying, curiosity killed the cat!  Discussion and exploration is healthy - again I emphasise its the way adults handle play sensitively and gently teach children right from wrong - rather than a resounding NO lets not go there attitude.  - Which I believe does more damange in the long run than good clear supportive information.

RE: RE: superhero and gun play - 25-06-09 17:23

by: curly

Yes I agree with all you say and I have no doubt your children are well-adjusted, happy empathetic children but what about those damaged children that come to setting without the loving support and guidance of a parent like you? Some of the children I work with do not know where to draw the line and do not understand the difference between reality and pretend. Yes you can discuss with these children but exploration through play has caused serious injuries to other children. It maybe ok at home but is it really appropriate for settings where children are coming from diverse backgrounds? 

Curiosity and children's interests keep being mentioned but without addressing all the other things children are curious about such as sex, alcohol, smoking, swearing, etc. What is the difference here because I can't see it? May I ask would you discourage children swearing at your setting in their play when it's only words - words don't hurt anyone do they?

by: Karine

Hi everyone

Thank you so much for this discussion by the way, its brilliant and informative and really helping my dissertation.

Could you guys let me know which settings you work in - for example, nursery, pre-school, childminder (dont need to know the actual name of them though).

Thank you

Millie XX

by: mickey

Oh Dam it Millie, That rules me well out. I'm open to offers, In fact any offers. A n y o n e.

by: kaz (the first one!)

kaz works in a pre-school!

by: Tunja

Tunja is an accredited childminder

by: mickey

So Kaz works harder then, Tunja, works Hard to so who the hell is the super hero, And how did this post get to this.... Yea , Yea Blame me

Childminding and being a Nanny , is'nt that one of the same. Same Duties, So sorry Tunja, Kaz as more to do, So she the Hero...

by: Tunja

Micky shame on you!!

Childminders are nothing like nannies. Nannies don't have to 'do the EYFS' 

by: kaz (the first one!)

I also 'walk away' from my pre-school at 3pm! I come home to an uncluttered (from toys) house!

by: mickey

Sorry Tunja, I take that back, Sorry about that, Slap on my hands for that..... forgive me.....

So Kaz what your saying is, YOU DON'T DO HOUSEWORK then, Tut, Tut....

by: kaz (the first one!)

Nope I never do housework unless I REALLY have to! Like most people who run their own businesses I am usually working all the hours I can to make the business successful. Although I say I walk away from it at 3pm, that is not strictly true! I am spending this weekend writing end of term reports and staff appraisals as well as collecting information for the NEG headcount form due in a couple of weeks. 

I have teenagers - they can empty dishwashers, put on washing and push a hoover around the house..... if they make a mess, they have to live in it!

by: curly

I work in a mainstream state nursery school.

I'm glad you've managed to collect lots of opinions - it makes things more difficult when everyone agrees!

by: Karine

Hi Guys

I think everyone who works with pre-schoolers or a teacher for that matter up to the age of 18 deserves a medal.

Each and every one of you/us works so hard under all the government directives and legislation.

And yes Curly it would be boring and difficult if everyone agreed with each other. 

So thanks again for a very interesting debate

by: KJT

Millie I have also been researching for my dissertation on the subject of gun and superhero play. I would be very intrested if you lead me to any informative piece of info or to know how well u are doing with it. I am at the beginning and feel a little baffled by it all!!!

by: Karine

Hi KJT

Thankfully have now completed my BA Hons and life is being lived - yipeeeee now have weekends and evenings!!!

If you look at the previous posts some good information is to be had within this discussion, to include a post from lilynolife who lists all the relevant publications you will need.

Also I went to several nursery owners with a questionaire which was incredibly long - but when they took the time and effort to do it - which made them analyse their practice alongside the EYFS particularly in respect of engaging boys interests, most admitted they did their best to steer children away from this type of play.  Parents of the nurseries were also given a seperate questionaire asking what superhero interest is at home and how they support.  These were interesting.  Also both practioners and parents had a remit to introduce the concept of superhero play throughout the nursery to see how it worked but using the Mosaic approach, putting in place what the children wanted replicated - staff taped conversation, photographed play directed by the children, children drew pictures of their superheroes.

It made practitioners really question their practice as they put writing materials in superhero camps (magic water messages) they were surprised to see some boys engage in mark making and writing skills - who had never entertained or show interest in the usual mark making areas.

 I also used this forum as evidence of opinion and it worked really well.

Good luck with your dissertation, its hard work, but worth it in the end.