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by: Mickey - 07-04-09 17:22

Most of us, Over the last year would have watched and read the news, Which concern, Students who wear the Veil, refuse to remove it, On religious reasons .

I have just looked at the Sun web site,

ON the face of it, it sounded like an April Fool joke.

Police were called and a mother of one was escorted off school premises in Lancashire. Her crime? Brandishing a weapon, causing a riot or giving her child a sugary snack in his lunch box? No, refusing to remove her face veil.

This is only the start of the Article, it does go on though.

It got me thinking, Do you have such an issue in your nursery,And if you do, Does it effect how the children relate to such Veils? I'm not anti Veil/s but is there times is should actually be removed, Please let me know what you think .

Cheers...

by: Maestro

I dont have any issues in my nursery, but one thing that does intrigue me is if we did, how would I know who was picking the child up? What was the rests of the article, I presume they couldn't ID her with the veil on so treated her as a tresspasser?

I know doctors that wont treat a person unless they remove their veil.

In my opinion a veil should be removed to confirm identity with the above as appropriate examples.

by: joshuajones

Oh what a ridiculous situation, and how distressing for the parent and child.

If we are to be a truly multi cultural society, then we must tolerate everyones beliefs, dress, jewellery etc.

However, this takes my mind back to the early /mid 70's when seikhs in this country had the law changed in their favour, in as much as they didn't need to wear crash helmets on motorbikes if they wore a turban, and uniforms were changed to accommodate their religious dress. There was alot of bad feeling towards them as people were unsure of the reasons behind the dress, and I am sure that the resentment towards the veils will die down too as people gain a better understanding and more tolerance to everyone's differences.

I hope that it happens sooner rather than later

by: joshuajones

Maestro, there are other ways to prove identity other than removing the veil, especially if it is offensive to the persons beliefs.

by: Curly

In Turkey women are not allowed to wear a headcovering in a number of public places. So you could say if it's good enough for them...........

However as Joshuajones says it is better to be tolerant and deal with issues in a sensitive and tactful way to avoid situations as Micky describes above.

by: Maestro

What other methods of confirming identity would you use then?

by: Mickey

A MUM was banned from attending parents? evening at her son?s school ? for wearing a face-covering Muslim veil.

Teachers refused the 34-year-old former pupil entry on ?health, safety and security grounds?.

Police were called to diffuse the row, before the tearful woman and her husband were allowed to speak to teachers separately in the school library.

Yesterday Our Lady and St John Catholic Art College, in Blackburn, Lancs, said parents could not wear anything covering the face, including hoodies and crash helmets.

But the mum said: ?The situation upsets me. I can?t see how my son is progressing.

Woman?s Voice, which supports Asians in Lancs, said the woman had offered to show her face to a female teacher.

Boss Anjum Anwar added: ?It is not just about parents? evening. She won?t be able to go to sports day.?

Headteacher Colette Gillen said: ?The difficulty would be if a number of ladies in veils were free to wander the corridors. It would not be feasible to monitor who is who.?

Three years ago local MP Jack Straw angered Muslim groups by calling the veil a ?statement of separation?.

This is the Full article, Though when i read it earlier i'm sure thre was more, I think They have chopped the article down, So sorry for this.

Firstly Maestro, I do Agree with your first reply, Unless the veil is remoed, Who is who ?, Yes i Understand the religious part of the Veil, But Surely sometimes, The veil needs to be removed, If not just for security Reasons.

JoshuJones, I hear what your saying But, Yes there may be other ways to I.D someone Apart from Dropping the veil, But If someone was arrested with a veil on, Pictures are required to be taken by the boys in Blue, They would have to remove the veil, I think they would have no Choice in the matter, Like If you refuse to give the police a DNA swob whilst in the Police block, The police could force you into it. I've heard this first hand and my next dorr neighbour is a Policeman, he says so to.

Would i be silly in saying this ... Anyone could hide under a veil, So were needs must, surely it should be dropped, This is quite a touchie subject, But i Believe a veil as its place, But when in rome, you do as th romans,

by: Lolly

Veil's worn on religious grounds, thats absolutely fine and they should be free to wear them.  However, in certain situations eg. if they need to be identified for medical grounds, police matters or security in schools then I do not think it is unreasonable for this request to be made.  If they can only reveal themselves to a female then this should be accommodated.  A multi-cultural society is what we have and more understanding and working together to over come these rather small problems would make our society a better place.  If the situation arose in the nursery I work in, I would like to think that we could work with them to over come the issue of their veil purely on security grounds and I'm sure in most instances they would understand that it is for the safety of their own child.  Respect, sensitivity and explanation that's all that's required why make an issue of it.

by: Mickey

For Sure with this Day and Age of Multi Races, We have to do the right thing, But this works both ways, I Just wonder what the Religious leaders of Multi Faiths say on the matter of Dropping the veil, For the above reasons

by: purepurple

I have been to Saudi arabia and found it to be one of the most restrictive and oppressive places i have ever been

I DO not want wearing veils to be the norm where I live, sorry, but that's how I feel

I hate talking to people wearing sunglasses

don't know how i would cope with a full veil, to be honest

when in rome........

by: purepurple

I have been to Saudi arabia and found it to be one of the most restrictive and oppressive places i have ever been

I DO not want wearing veils to be the norm where I live, sorry, but that's how I feel

I hate talking to people wearing sunglasses

don't know how i would cope with a full veil, to be honest

when in rome........

by: Mickey

How lucky are you, Been to saudi, Ermm I noticed i was'nt asked along, Thought we were friends,.

I'm with you on the sunglasses, , As for veils, I have my views, But for not wanting to get into serious trouble, I won't air them here, Only to say, It's about time Great Britain The U.K whatever we call it these days, went back to British values

If i go to country were booze is'nt allowed, i would'nt even try to get it, because i respect the country and there laws, Mean while back in The U,K most Religions just ride rough shot over our laws...If a school request a removal of a veil, Then people in question should remove it, If they refuse on (Religious grounds) Then i think this is just a excuse ,certain religions use religion when ever something does'nt suit them, It's about time, they stopped hiding beyond the veil (No pun Intended)

These are only MY veiws , In no way do i class myself as any kind of a racist, .

One last question if i can be so bold, The females that wear these face covers (Sorry Veil) Do there Husbands get to see there face/s IF they do, Then is'nt this Double standards ?

by: Karine

I did not think wearing the veil was totally due to religious beliefs, but up to each individual as to how far they interpret the law of their religion and to show respect for their husband.

I wonder how nursery settings would incorporate a female wearing the full veil during their employment, what effect it would have on all children in the setting?

Personally I believe that the laws of this country should be obeyed, we do respect religion and culture etc., but sometimes I think we can take this too far.  People emigrate here because of our values and openess and freedom.  I cant understand why these ladies want to go so far as to continue to feel they need to respect themselves by covering up to that extent.  But then I do not practice their religion.  Personally I feel for PSED, CLL faces need to be seen so that a child can read facial expressions, watch the persons mouth when being spoken to etc., etc.,  I dont find the veil threatening in any way, but when it can effect speach, and people reading your body language, thoughts and expression I think I would find it unsettling and questionable for the need to totally hide behind a piece of material.

Perhaps someone on this site who wears a veil can contribute to the discussion and enlighten us as to the benefits to everyone they come into contact with in this country.... we know the benefits for their husban (for his eyes only), but .......

by: Mickey

Yes that sounds like a good idea, If we have someone in the forums who wear a veil, They could put their point of view

by: Karine

What about Annette?

Annette what research has been done on this? - Do you have someone who could help us - is the veil worn for religious reasons, if so to what extent is this expected to be taken.

I am sure I heard a recent debate on BBC1 (Sunday morning) which highlighted that although the veil is worn by women it is worn as a matter of choice - a respect for their husband - and that each individual can choose as to whether to wear full veil or not.

by: Maestro

As far as I'm aware the law does not cover religious practice and as such any religious grounds are covered by policy. Obviously we can sit and argue all day about equal ops and never comprimise.

I agree with Millie on the body language, not just with children but adults as well. It can be quite uneasy talking to someone who hides their hands.

by: Annette

I have contacted a few organisations about the issues raised on this thread to see if they can shed some light on it. I'll let you know if/when I hear back...

But I've come across an interesting case back in 2006 involving a teaching assistant. Aishah Azmi was dismissed from a school in Dewsbury, W Yorks, for refusing to remove her niqab (face veil) in front of men, including the children. 

There are more details on Wikipedia.  

by: Maestro

Employment law is a different kettle of fish

by: kaz (the first one!)

Interesting article Annette ,thank you.

by: Annette

The Muslim Public Affairs Committee UK (MPACUK), a Muslim civil liberties group, has given me the following detailed response from a member who is also a London primary school teacher:

by: Hils

All this is very interesting; I work with alot of Muslim women some of who wear the veil (their choice) and it has never impacted on any ID issues or compromised any quality of care. Most women remove thir veil provided there is no male present. Afew of my muslim mates wear the veil because they have chosen to to so (and some have husbands who wish they wouldn't wear it)!

It is unfortunate that so far no Muslim staff member/parent has responded, I would be keen to hear their take on the matter

by: Annette

The National Day Nurseries Association has also got back to me on this issue:

Purnima Tanuku, Chief Executive of National Day Nurseries Association (NDNA) comments: “In such situations there are a number of laws to consider, and it is also important to be respectful of both staff and parent wishes. Whilst a nursery must ensure it is sure that a child is being picked up by the right person and safety is always paramount, building a position of trust with a parent who may choose to wear a niqab or burqa is key. For example, speaking to a parent right from the start may identify that they are happy to remove this when first entering the nursery if a woman answers the door or you may identify a method that works for you both. If you explain the importance of ensuring that only authorised individuals pick up their child and discuss what the parent is comfortable with then you will find situations can be addressed. This should be backed up with a clear policy.”

by: Rose

But is the wearing of the veil religious law or choice? If its a choice then I think we can expect a woman to remove it if we feel it impinges on her job. Some nurseries I have known have strict policies on clothing and jewellry that staff can wear so how, if the veil is a choice, does it differ from that?

by: Prawn

I have worked in a number of muslim countries and at no piont has a veil been an issue either with staff or parents. I think it is more of a case of tolerance and exceptance. The setting I currently work in  ID's people through there signature and a pass word niether of which requires the face to be seen.

I truely believe that if we are the multi racial society we calm to be we would look at solutions rather than look at what may be precieved by some as a problem

RE: RE: Removing the Veil - 15-04-09 19:47

by: joshuajones

Well said Prawn !!

by: Mickey

If i go into a shop, I see the Shop keepers face, if i go into a Bar i see the bar Staff face, ETC ETC ETC, if i shake the hand of a friend or a new manager i expect to shake a hand.

If you want a Nursery Job, The Veil must go, if you don't like it, Don't go for the job.

by: purepurple

I have a problem with organised religion and the way it imposes it's views on us all. I also have an issue with the veil and the burqa. In a society where men and women are equal why do some women have to cover up?

I am concerned about the messages that this sends to young girls. Women's rights have changed an awful lot in the past few decades and I feel very uneasy about these issues raised. It seems like a massive step backwards to me. Emily Pankhurst would be turning in her grave!

Like I've said before, I have been to Saudi Arabia and seen first hand the way women are treated as second class citizens and I will not tolerate that happening in a so called democratic western society.

by: Karine

Thank you so much Annette for researching this for us, its quite a topic.

I think so far what has been revealed is that it is personal choice to wear the full veil/part or just to cover the body up. - No where does it state that it is part of the Muslim Law.

Also Prawn you have hit the nail on the head - you have worked in Muslim countries, this country is predominantly Christian and with its own Church at the Head.  Whilst I firmly believe that people have a right to practice their own religion, I also think that equally if they do come to this country they know what the laws are and these should be adhered to and respected.  If we went to a Muslim country I would be exptected to cover up (not wear a mini skirt - god forbid with my legs!). 

Otherwise taking it to diverse extremes we should allow hoodies to wear their hoods, boys to wear their caps in schools, piercings etc., Just because it is their belief and their culture.  The word culture is not just about faith and religion, but what units of people group together.

At the moment I think (and it is just a personal observation) that these ladies who are what even some of their own people term extreme are actually testing the waters within this country to see how far they can take their Muslim Religion, seeing what the government and the people will actually expect.

Its really odd that flight attendants in this country get persecuted for simply wearing a cross! -   In some ways I think the government are too frightened to actually draw the line - perhaps because some of these oil rich countries put quite a bit of money our way! - We also do not wish to offend others and we do support equality and diversity. 

But this country does need to look at what the implications are for children.  At the moment we are being taught that body and facial expressions are paramount for children - like us they read what is expected of them through this.  The tone of voice, diction etc., can become distorted if a piece of material is put in front of the face - also letter formation and pronounciation can not easily be read if the face is covered. 

Simply if in Muslim countries they are happy to do this, then so be it.  But this is England.

How happy would the government be if another religion came to the fore, that started to undress!!! - The religion of naturism - back to celebrating how god made us!!  Now I could find a sect that does this for you!!!!!

by: Mickey

Annette, Thats really interesting and thanks for the info and chasing it up for us....

Can i say this (PLAYING DEVILS ADVOCATE)

If i was a Manager (I'm NOT) But if i was, I had someone to interview for a job, who refused to remove the veil , Sorry but i would not give the job to this person, is'nt it important for children, to see who is looking after them , I think so...

God i'm so going to get in trouble for what i'm about to type but, hey Here goes.......

religion is about beliefs, I Believe in Santa, but we now it's made up rubbish . I believe council Tax should be lower, It ain't going to happen, Some people believe that god died on the cross, And rose again, What a load of rubbish, But people believe in this, OK I believe in the veil being removed, within certain situations

In the Nursery (VEILS) should not be allowed, Sorry if you don't like what i'm saying, BUT religion is a self imposed nonsence ... Like it or Not, religion is self imposed, To add to this their is mean't to be one god, Under different names, if this is the case Why so Many interpretations .. Sorry this thing called religion is Pants, It sucks, just look at the Popes latest words, condoms are dangerious ...... Religion is crap and self imposed, just like the veil... Self Imposed.....

by: Maestro

God didnt die on the cross....

by: kaz (the first one!)

When in Rome!

I visited Thailand a few years ago and respected their wishes that I cover my legs and arms when I went into their temples.  I was respectful of their customs and although on a baking hot day, I was uncomfortable wearing a long heavy skirt and a man's shirt (that I was given to wear) I did so because I didn't want to offend anyone with my pasty skin.

Unfortunately what I believe and what I practice are very often poles apart and although that does make me a hypocrite, I can live with it mostly.

I do not belief veils should be worn in this country as it offends us, especially me. We are a country that relies on facial expressions and it is our culture to have open faces. However,if I was faced with a parent who wore a veil and refused to remove it, I'd probably be a hypocrite and try and accommodate that person as much as someone in a wheelchair. Why? Because that is what I am trained to do.

Before I had children I was a London bus driver and my experience of ladies wearing veils was very negative. IF a lady was allowed to speak, I was not able to understand her because of the clear plastic screen that separates driver from passenger - I relied on facial expression and lip reading, especially with foreign students. This did not make me racist (as I don't believe I am) but did make my job frustrating. Sometimes practicality and common sense have to prevail over, as Mick says' a self imposed religion'.

by: Mickey

Whoops (MAESTRO) Micks Mistake  YES i forgot, it was Jesus, Whops . just for that mistake i'm off to watch the Life of Bwian

Where i live in Dudley, This Area, as so many differing Cultures, Most of them are really great people, Though the odd one or two have chips on their shoulders, Sorry about this comment, But when i'm out shopping and see females wearing their veils, they remind me as though they have just come from a funeral, All in Black, with a Black Veil, It's like something from the Muppet show...Please don't be upsett with what i'm saying but, I say it, As i see it, I should have gone to Spec-savers

by: Curly

I think this discussion has demonstrated how intolerant we can be of other people's differences. Would it not be better to discuss ways of reconciling the needs of children's security with the rights of a woman's choice of clothing ?

Removing barriers to inclusion is about finding ways around the problem not identifying the child/parent as the problem.

P.S Micky do have a Dudley accent? I will be reading your posts with Dudley in mind.

RE: RE: Removing the Veil - 17-04-09 20:53

by: joshuajones

Oh Curly - well said.

I have read this thread with growing frustration and dare not post because I am likely to lose the plot !!

I was convinced that racism in this country was a thing of the past - I was in at the beginning when equal opps started  - yes I AM that old !! and I naively thought that racism in all its shaded forms was a thing of the past, until I met my partner - who is Black and oh boy was I WRONG !!!! I have experienced first hand the prejudice and racism (from both cultures) veiled and open, and this thread has just proved that intolerance and fear is alive and kicking in this country !!

We PRIDE ourselves in being a multi cultural nation, but if that is the case we should embrace ALL aspects of multi culturalism - ok for those of you that have posted "when in Rome etc"  but does the fact that we do accept other cultures and beliefs make us a truly multi cultural society and not one that play acts and expects everyone to abide by our rules ??

When in Rome does not make it right !!!!

by: purepurple

have you ever been to a muslim country?

do you know how intolerant they can be?

why should we feel we are in the wrong for standing up against the oppression of women?

religion has got nothing to do with it.

It is sexist, wrong and should not be tolerated in a so-called liberal society.

RE: RE: Removing the Veil - 17-04-09 21:11

by: joshuajones

purepurple said  "why should we feel we are in the wrong for standing up against the oppression of women?"

If these women CHOOSE to wear the veil then there is NO opression !!! and from the comments on this thread the veil is a CHOICE .

Have you ever been married to a minority ethnic group and suffered the racism and injustice of intolerance ????

I am not talking about religion.

And YES I know how intolerant people can be I have had experienced it FIRST HAND !!!!!

by: Mickey

I can Honestly say No, I could Lie and say Yes, But NO

No to your second question, again i could lie and say yes

I Think Religion does play a part, And i say this due to,

Jesus is one , But under jesus, He hold many Names. Ala / Jesus / Zion , The list goes on....Did Jesus wear a Veil ...

In Fact someone please inform me here. I have'nt read the Bible and never would, As i believe the Bible is a Man made myth....Did the Bible ever mention a Veil

If the Bible mentioned the Veil Then as a book of Myth , Then the Veil is a Myth... If this Book does'nt mention the Veil, then to me the Veil is a self impossed nonsence....

As for being sexist. NO it's not about sexism, It's about showing respect to the Laws of the UK, Which alot of religions that find themselves in the UK tend to ride ruff shot over...

Two films here to watch, They have'nt got veil

The Ten Commandments . The Greatest Storey ever Told

yes they are made up films, Which steem from another Myth (The Bible)

Ok lets cut to the chase here... In the UK, Certain White People/Companies/Firms . Need to see your face, I can't really say any more at the moment than that...Is this Racism, May be BUT you get something Called Active Racism, Its Racism That is racist for a pro active reason, I>E There is a point to the Racism.

just Like Companies that only require woman for a job. Active discrimination.. Its damed if you do, Damed if youdon't

At the end of the day. The Veil (Fine) but when asked to drop it, It should be. It would be forced off in a Police station if arrested and charged.....

RE: RE: Removing the Veil - 17-04-09 23:18

by: joshuajones

The bible is a Christian production - Muslims do not believe in the bible,

Showing respect for the Laws of the UK ?? What a joke !!!!Even your pure white british born and bred show no respect for the Laws of the UK - if they don't why the hell should anyone else ?????

Prisons are full of nice white people that do not respect the laws of the UK, but I guess thats ok 'cos they don't wear a veil, they can rape, murder, steal, blow people up, but its ok 'cos they show there face !!! That is hidden under a hoodie, balaclava, scarf, baseball cap ad infinitum !!

Yes the police may insist on removal of a veil BUT they would also pay respect to the person and NOT do it in the presence of a man.

Listen to yourself - I am not a racist but !!!!!!!!

by: purepurple

but they don't choose to wear it

they have to because they are expected to, because the men make all the laws

RE: RE: Removing the Veil - 17-04-09 21:59

by: joshuajones

This whole post is telling us that wearing the veil is CHOICE it is not about men expecting the women to wear the veil, it is not a religious expectation it is CHOICE .

If a woman chooses to wear the veil it is not opression. And are we really so different ?? SOME men in this country do not like their wives/partners wearing make up, so the women don't - some men don't want their partners going out to work - so they don't, some men batter their partners because they wear make up, go to work, don't have the dinner on the table etc etc etc and WE as a nation turn a blind eye to it.

We are no different, we just dress it in a different way - if you happen to be a white woman in this country whose husband does not want her to wear make up and so you don't, no one would bat an eye lid !! But if you happen to wear a veil well God forbid you are not to be trusted, you are opressed, you are a terrorist !!!

Please !!!!

by: Mickey

Well , What a great point, What a wicked point

I'm not sure how to respond to this one.

Men making laws, Under a Religion..So woman are'nt equal under this man made religion

My point P/P is, The veil at times should be dropped, And i say again, If arrested and charged, The veil would be dropped, WOULD be Removed by Force...

Remember this, Look at the TV, How many woman do you see on TV that have gone under ground, Because they do not want an arranged marrage (Fair Play to em)

Woman are trying to fight back, How many woman actually want to wear this veil, I say again a veil is a man made . Just like the religion they follow. And again the point is, When in Britain, They should show Britain some dam respect, Do They NO

Ethnic Religions in the UK have taken over On the subject of racism, This is a one way street, Sorry to use these words.

The point needs to be made

If i call a black man A So and So, I could be arrested for Racism, If a Black man calls me a white So and So , NOTHING is done, A One way Street , Ethnic people can play the race card when it suits them, A white person ain't got a chance.. I'm sick of this country, I have to say i'm ashamed to be white in the UK

by: Mickey

Ok

If it's about choice, fair enough, You just said, The men lay down the law, So how is it choice, Strange that is.

We dress the way we do, But the inportant point here, YOU CAN SEE OUR FACES

In this time off idiots that wish to blow you up, Is'nt it a good thing that faces are shown, Sorry if i sound like a racist, I'M not,

by: Karine

Oh dear, the whole idea of the thread is to have an open discussion and for each and everyone of us to become informed of others opinions - even though some of us have a different idea and belief to others.  Racism/intolerance is quite a hefty implication just because some do not totally believe or understand in what another person is, has experienced etc.,  The beauty of this country is that we do have freedom of expression (or so I thought).  Throughout time countries have fought countries for Religion/land - to rule over anothers beliefs - I wonder if oneday we will all become so brainwashed that we are afraid to relay our thoughts and ideas.  This does not mean I am racist - try being German and half English - but when I do things wrong my hubby blames it on the German half!

Yes wearing the veil is of personal choice, and good for them.  

But as a childcare practitioner am I not allowed to question if a child may have difficulty reading a persons expression, body language, lips and pronounciation - no one has answered this yet? - and I look forward to hearing views - as I keep an open mind - which I can still do in this country.

Also joshuajones I am a big fan of yours - but I am sure racism as you know does not just come down to the colour of skin.  Just in your comments you could be viewed as being racist against the white community - as you say most are in our jails - but being white may also mean they hold other passports - such as Irish, Scotish, European and other ethnicities.

 The argument here is age old - it does boil down to CHOICE and abiding the laws set within the country one chooses to live in.  Do you think if I went to Saudi they would bend to me not covering up my legs and arms? - No because I would respect what was being asked of me.

What about hoodies? - this country has band hoodies in shops and public places in many areas - both black, white European - why do we have to abide by this - because simply we live in this country and it is the law.

RE: RE: Removing the Veil - 18-04-09 14:49

by: joshuajones

 Millie you siad "The argument here is age old - it does boil down to CHOICE and abiding the laws set within the country one chooses to live in.  Do you think if I went to Saudi they would bend to me not covering up my legs and arms? - No because I would respect what was being asked of me."

I am not disagreeing with this at all BUT Saudi does not profess to be tolerant of other cultures - when in Saudi do as we do no question and if we don't we know what the consequences will be .

However, this country does not have such intolerance, this country says "welcome all "" and quite rightly so, and in that welcome we as a country will tolerate, change our laws, our perception and the way we teach our children to accommodate you and make us a truly multi cultural society.

No your absoulutely right racism does not come down to just the colour of a persons skin, my comments were in response to suggestions such as this country is Brit and if you don't like it you know where the ports are !! (or something similar!) The majority of people who wear the veil will not be white (but I know some white women are choosing to dress in this fashion! )and so one must assume that the coments are directed at a minority ethnic group. ( and I know one should never assume !!!!)

Women who choose to wear the veil are not breaking any rules, and why should there be the perception that THEY should abide by the rules, when our prison system is full of people who have no respect for the rules !!and then hide behind Human Rights !!

Yes we should be able to have an open discussion, and yes we should be able to ask the questions, I for one don't understand why a woman would want to wear the veil, but then neither do I understand why some women allow themselves to be battered frequently by there husbands - the world is full of things that I don't understand, but just because I don't understand them doesn't mean I have to insist that they change . I would rather make a judgement on something when I do understand it - and posting comments such as if they don't like it they can go home etc is just inflammatory  and down right insulting.

As childcare professionals, who are at the forefront of teaching children about tolerance, understanding, kindness , different cultures, religions, festival and so on, surely we should show more tolerance ourselves ??

by: Mickey

It's as simple as this....

Sercurity is more important, Than any veil, How would you feel, If someone gained access toyour nursery, Through a veil And they turned out to be someone else, I Bet you would'nt bet amused... I betyou would...

The veil is a self imposed rubbish

Reliogion is self imposed, It;s there choice to follow a religion without any factual bases, Just like Jesus, It's Myth

Just like the veil (MYTH AND SELF IMPOSED)

by: kaz (the first one!)

If I walked into a nursery to collect a child wearing a balaclava, would I be asked to remove it?

by: purepurple

or a crash helmet?

bikers get asked to remove them all the time, especially in banks, so they can identify their faces on the cctv

by: Curly

Once upon a time there was a man who wanted all people to be like himself. He didn't like people who were different.

His aim was to create a super race where there were No disabled people. No Travellers. No Jews. No Jehovah's Witnesses. No muslims. And no one that disagreed with him. He expected everyone to conform with his way of thinking and do as he wanted is HIS country. His name was Hilter. That's why we have Human Rights:

Article 1 - All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 18 - Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

We maybe able to point to other countries, communities, people  that are not upholding Human Rights but as we always tell the children two wrongs don't make a right.

I'm not saying that we shouldn't protect the security in our settings but some of the views and opinions in this discussion seem to be more about demanding conformity than a genuine interest in safeguarding our children.

I think the problem with veils in the UK is that there is no clear guidance. In Turkey - a muslim country - it's very clear. Females can wear the veil but not in schools or government buildings. You will have to ask the powers that be why we don't have similar rules.

by: purepurple

"All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights."

it seems that some cultures don't agree with this

by: Mickey

Curly . Ummm Mr Master Race (HILTER) Really lost the plot, As History testifies to. The amazing fact i did'nt know was, His Grandmother was in fact Jewish. Mr Master race wiped out the Jews, Or the ones His Master Race Army found. Please watch the Boy in the stripped P'J's. It' just makes you wonder why he hated the Jews so much, I don't claim to be a expert, I had t look things up on the Net... But even today the Jews are Persecuted, Why.

Human rights and Hitler, All i can say, we would like to think we hae come a long way post Hitler. Have We

Artcle 18. I Agree with . What I'm saying, because of the times we find ourselves in, We do need to be seeing who we are actually seeing. Now let me make myself clear. if the females want to wear their veils (Fine) But in certain situations, Surely we have to ask the veil to be dropped for a minute.

I Have A Turkish friend and he is a Loverly man and his english wife his and their children. The Point you have raised is a god one to be honest. Wearing the veil in a School/ Goverment Buildings.. This should be in Day Care to.  If Females wish to wear veils, thats ok. But they do need to understand issues from a schools point of view

On a lighter note, And i did'nt want to say this , BUT, If you watch the Life of Brian (COOL FILM) Even they were using veils, So when i said did it mention the veil in the Bible, You know Perhaps, Just perhaps they did wear them in the time of Jesus.. So please feel free to slap me (NOT HARD THOUGH)

If you have'nt watch The Boy in the Stripped PJ's Please do so, It makes you think.

by: Curly

'it seems that some cultures don't agree with this'

And that's why we need Human Right laws to prevent conformist societies like Hitlers' happening again. Banning the veil could be seen as the first step to going back down that road.

Micky - yes it does mention headcoverings for women in the bible. But covering the hair not the face. And not all the time.

by: kaz (the first one!)

one culture tried to dominate all the other cultures by wiping them out. Let each country keep their own culture. Why should we have other cultures forced upon us. As I said way back...when in Rome!

by: Mickey

Mr H. Did try to rule the world, and history shows, He was a , well you work it out, i can't swear here, but i would...

Yes let each coutry keep their own culture, Ours being english...

So again i say, when we require a veil to be removed, It should be.... YES When in Rome,, HEAR DAM HEAR

Well said Kaz...Well Said

by: Maestro

Wow we've gone from veils to Hitler. Interesting thread!

by: Annette

Thank you for everyone's comments, which has led to this being a very interesting discussion.

However, from a childcare practitioner standpoint, we feel that the discussion has now veered away from being helpful. While we recognise the right of everybody to express their views, the Nursery World team find some of the views that have been expressed in this discussion offensive and offer no solution to the question that started the discussion. 

Saying that people who are not Christian, or who originate from other parts of the world, should go back to where they came from solves nothing. The reality is that people from a wide range of religions and ethnic origins are now very much part of UK society.

This discussion has produced some interesting and creative suggestions on how to deal with situations when some women choose to wear the veil in childcare settings. However, this has now veered into a discussion of immigration policy and multiculturalism generally, rather than anything to do with childcare practice. There are other website forums for those discussions.

Robust discussion is certainly very welcome in the Nursery World forum. Comments that could make some forum members intimidated or put them off from participating, as has been the case here, are never welcome. For this reason, I have edited some of the posts.

Unless anyone has anything constructive to add, I suggest we draw a line under this discussion and move on.

Thank you,

Annette

Assistant editor - Nursery World  

by: Mickey

SO MUCH FOR FREE SPEECH

by: Mickey

Please NOTE..I did'nt start off by mentioning Mr Hitler, Yes i commented about the Idiot...

But i still think in certain situations the Veil should be dropped so, For security reasons. If thats wrong, to ask these females to do this, Then i just give up.........

I'm moving to Mars.....

by: Curly

For those that didn't get the Hitler link (sigh):

Hitler stands as an historic reminder for those who feel that other cultures must conform to our way of thinking and living. Learning from history must prevent us from making the same mistakes. It was introduced as a wider view to the discussion.

by: Mickey

No Comment.. As Free speech around here is a bit risky..

But i hear what your point is....

by: shelleyR

I am very worried about the children who grow up in england. There is so much intolerance in this country. How are children going to explore their world if not even their parents are willing to talk to people about their cultural backgrounds and show acceptance. There is many steps to keep our children safe while respecting other people. 

I feel so sorry for the people who come to your country in the hope to live a life where people accept who they are. I find it sooo funny that people say that the UK is a Multicultural tolerant country. I am australian and have only lived here for 2 years and never felt more hated for just being next to someone on the train or the bus. I have met the most beautiful people here and the majority of them are immigrants who love experiencing, sharing and work to understand other cultural backgrounds. What are British values??? I have not witnessed anything that is good.

Please be careful of what you say around young ears as your values and unkindness becomes theirs as well.

by: Annette

We've decided to delete several more posts because the comments were descending into a slanging match. Any posts that are merely insulting will continue to be deleted.

Annette

Assistant editor - Nursery World

by: kaz (the first one!)

I know this post was 'closed' by Annette but did anyone see the story on the BBC news this morning about the French banning veils in public? I confess I missed it.

by: mickey

Kaz , I'm coming round to get ya, please don't start me off again, on This, but as you have made a new post, Im more than willing to get banned again by my stalker. You know who i'm on about.

Sorry i missed this BBC News item, The latest item i have seen, Is about Mr Jackson.......what a great loss

French Banning the veil, So my posts were not all together (OFF THE WALL) No pun for Michael Jackson, Sorry

The French will ban anything at anytime, So don't read to much into that, But fair play to them, it's about time someone, Some where stood up to this rubbish.

When in Rome

But when in The UK, Do as you please, Like it or not, Books or forums on this, It's true And we all know it....

The Ethnic people in the UK, ride rough shot over our laws, But hey, it does'nt matter, We are the UK, who gives a C.ap

Ok thats it i'm off to Iraq to give them Beers and Vodka, Never mind their Laws, If it's good enough for the UK, It's good enough for the rest of the world.... Sorry, It's about time the UK stood up to the idiots, That think they rule the laws of the UK,

White people in the UK, Are a minority, And that says it all, I fully expect to be edited for this post and if i am, I will fully complain to the Nursery World Web Site owners, Watch

By the way THIS IS NOT a racist reply, For those who wish to moan to Nursery World.... OK

by: Lolo

Mickey - I am new to this site, so I don't know your background and how seriously we are meant to take some of your more outlandish posts, but I have to say that what you have posted is racist.  It lumps all non-white british residents of the UK into one group, that you have denounced as unlawful and by a derogatory (if non-sensical) term.

The vast majority of people who live here are law abiding and respectful.  The rest are idiots - and some of those idiots are white british, who don't care about the laws of this country either. 

by: curly

Did you watch Glastonbury last night? They didn't seem to a have a white minority problem there Mickey, hee, hee. I agree with you on the French government though - a law unto themselves.

by: mickey

Curly, glaston what. Arhh thats a lot of hippies setting up tents listening to And i use this terms very loosely, Music.

Sorry i was watching to Footie as i will do tonight, Lets beat the german's Again...